Clarification/Follow-up by aime-cinema on 08/04/06 5:20 pm:
"A growth rate of 0.008% with an annual plunging of that rate with 60% does not matter much : almost nill is still nill.

(Western) Europe's society just shows that there are hugh problems using multi-cultural societies as a means of influencing economies and/or social services and policies.

Most immigrants from Northern Africa and Turkey show a tendency to lower the growth rate and social services by their lower production rate and percentage of employment."

So you think Japan will not accept immigrants? What problems does Western Europe have with multi-culturalism? Does Eastern Europe have problems with multiculturalism? What do you mean that immigrants from Northern Africa and Turkey lower growth rate and social services by a lower production rate and percentage of employment? Does that mean most immigrants fro N. Africa and Turkey are lazy? And do European countries have caps on immigration in order to make sure that their racial make up does not change to much?

Clarification/Follow-up by isizathu on 08/04/06 6:05 pm:
No, I don't say they should not accept immigrants. I suggest that the clear and strict rules and objections should be set for all immigrants.
With a sort of time limited or temporal residence permit period, or till nationalisation follows.

Main problem in Europe is the different views immigrants have on social support systems.
We see them as a back-up, whereby work has preference and back-up is a temporal support only.
Immigrants see a country of milk and honey, where you get a (reduced amount of) money without having to work.

Yes, Eastern Europe has also multi-culturalism. But there in the previously USSR dominated countries it is not the wealth they share, but poverty.
Also there are many racial and religious problems there.

Immigrants from Northern Africa and Turkey with their preference to live on social back-up instead of income from hard work lower the average productivity and thereby the growth rate.

I do not say they are lazy. For them this is a paradise, and they accept the social back-up as their prefered option, above having to work for more invcome. Still they are jealous of the (more) money we earn from hard work. And that can bring social unrest, as recently happened in France.

Yes, EU countries have a cap on immigration.
A cap that is lowered more and more, and is favoured towards political refugees, at the expense of economic immigrants. Racial make up has nothing to do with that. Skin color, religion, or country of origin are irrelevant for immigration consideration.

You can be sure that your racial make-up will change. Here in West Europe dark skinned muslim immigrants from the Middle East and Northern Africa make up now about 15% of the total population.

Clarification/Follow-up by aime-cinema on 08/04/06 6:34 pm:
Why don't you think Japan will start accepting immigrants? They have a declining birth rate also. So most immigrants live off welfare and not work? Do the majority of native Europeans want immigrants? Who came up with the idea that Europe needed immigrants from all over?

Clarification/Follow-up by isizathu on 08/04/06 6:47 pm:
Well, it's a choice you have to make.

Either you go for immigration, running the risk of getting social unrest and a profound change in racial and religious make-up
Or you choose for a reduction in the growthrate with a reduction of the general wealth and social support.
You can not have both.

The immigrant birthrate is much higher than that of the autochtone population.
Western Europeans : 1.6 children per family
Immigrants : 4.1 children per family
Yes, that number is indeed reducing, but much too slow. Enforcing to speak the local language, to work, and to educate the children should be one of the conditions for a temporal residence permit.
Also there should be rules for women rights.

The biggest part of immigrants in Western Europe live off welfare.

Native Europeans welcomed immigrants in the 1960's when there was a hugh labour shortage.
If you would ask the same quation now 80% would say "Send them back".

As stated : there are two main groups of immigrants : in the 1960's and 1970's that were mainly economic immigrants who came here to work in factories.
Today it is mainly political refugees - often better educated than economic immigrants. But their numbers is only a fraction of what happened in 1960-1970.

Clarification/Follow-up by aime-cinema on 08/09/06 9:39 pm:
Where did you get the stats that Western Europeans have 1.6 kids per couple, and immigrants have 4.1 per couple? Why doesn't the government give them condoms? How do I figure out by those statistics what the racial make up of England will be in 100 years?

Clarification/Follow-up by aime-cinema on 08/09/06 10:04 pm:
Do you know how the government decides what the cap should be for immigration?

Clarification/Follow-up by aime-cinema on 08/09/06 10:04 pm:
Do you know how the government decides what the cap should be for immigration?

Clarification/Follow-up by isizathu on 08/11/06 3:55 am:
please rate my reply first

Clarification/Follow-up by aime-cinema on 08/12/06 2:45 am:
Where did you get the statistic that the native europeans have 1.6 kids per couple, and immigrants have 4.1 kids per couple? Using those statistics how can I calculate what the racial make up of France will be in 100 years?

Clarification/Follow-up by isizathu on 08/12/06 3:53 am:
please rate my reply first

Clarification/Follow-up by aime-cinema on 08/12/06 2:11 pm:
How do I rate your reply? There is no button for it.