Clarification/Follow-up by Saladin on 04/19/05 12:49 pm:

I didn't realise that to please the questioner here one had to accept JW teachings even when one does not find them biblical.

But had I realise that, it would not have changed my answer.

Is God visible or invisible?

Colossians 1:15
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature


"invisible" here is in Greek 'aoratos' {ah-or'-at-os}, and can mean either:

1, unseen, because it is hidden, or

2, that which can not be seen because it is insubstantial, or

3, invisible - ie - can be seen but chooses not to be seen, as in The Invisible Man.


1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

In this passage, the KING referred to is Jesus Christ, who was CLEARLY visible, even after death and resurrection.


Luke 24:39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Luke 24:40
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet.


God is invisible only on those occasions when he chooses NOT to reveal himself, but when he does, he is very clearly visible.

Understanding these distinctions leads to a true understanding about what God can and can not, and what God does and does not do.

You have to believe that the Bible is full of lies if you refuse to believe what is written in its holy pages, and one has to be spiritually blind not to see what is meant by what is written there by holy men of God.


Exodus 33:11
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend

Exodus 24:9
9 ¶ Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

Exodus 24:10
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness.

Exodus 24:11
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.



I could go on wiht other instances where God has abandoned his invisibility by appearing to chosen people, such as Stephen (Acts 7), Isaiah (6), Abraham (Gen 17), and so on.


It is plain to see for all who will see.

Of course, if you do not accept what the Bible says, you will not be convinced.

:)

Ronnie

Clarification/Follow-up by hOPE12 on 04/19/05 11:29 pm:
Hello Ronnie,

You know many say the Mormons are not bibical also. I personally agree with the many, Mormons are bibical and one reason is they misunderstand what the Bible says and so they use their own book.

You are not conviced about what the Bible says nor do you accept what it says, because if you did, you would not need another book to supplement it.

The "Bible is the only book I use for my definite answers to spiritual matters. If it is not in the Bible then it does not come from God.

So Ronnie, your comments do not hold water because what you accuse the JW's of you yourself have proven to be. No where in the Bible is the teaching of "Trinity found. No where is the word trinity found.

You tend to make Jesus Christ look mentally ill. If there is a Trinity then Jesus prayed to himself when on earth.

Notice how good common sense sees
It may be well past midnight when Jesus and his 11 faithful apostles reach the garden of Gethsemane. He has often gone there with his apostles.
John 18:1, 2 Having said these things, Jesus went out with his disciples across the winter torrent of Kid´ron to where there was a garden, and he and his disciples entered into it. 2 Now Judas, his betrayer, also knew the place, because Jesus had many times met there with his disciples.

Within hours, Jesus is to die as though he were a despicable criminal. The agony of this anticipated experience and how it may bring reproach upon his Father is so intense that while Jesus prays, his sweat becomes as drops of blood falling to the ground.

Luke 22:41-44 41 And he himself drew away from them about a stone’s throw, and bent his knees and began to pray, 42 saying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” 43 Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 But getting into an agony he continued praying more earnestly; and his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground.

Now Ronnie notice this and use common sense when reading it

John 17 Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, 2 according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

In verse 1 Jesus’ words: ““Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you,”

Why would Jesus need to ask himself if he is God, to glorify himself?

In verse 2: “2 according as you have given him authority over all flesh, “ Why would Jesus if he is God, say to himself that he gave himself authority over all flesh? If he was God, wouldn’t he already know that?

Verse 3 says that we need to take in knowledge of the only true God and of the one that God sent forth. Why this be worded this way Ronnie, if they are the same?

Verse 4 says “4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do.” Is Jesus again talking to himself? Did Jesus tell himself he finished the work he gave himself? Why would he need to speak that way? Why would Jesus who is humble and modest glorify himself? He won’t Ronnie, he was glorifying his Father.

Finally Ronnie, notice this point: “5 So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

So you would have a person with common sense to believe that Jesus said to himself, “So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself. Why would he need to say this, if he is part of a trinity god? Why does he need to ask himself to glorify himself? Does that make sense to you Ronnie? And last but not least if Jesus is God how could he be glorified alongside himself? Does he have two bodies?

If you feel I am wrong then prove it. Where are your scriptures to explain answers to my questions above? I am a reasonable person Ronnie, you explain the answers and I will listen. What you want me to believe is not logical.

Take care,
Hope12

Clarification/Follow-up by Erewhon on 09/20/05 4:53 am:
You are not conviced about what the Bible says nor do you accept what it says, because if you did, you would not need another book to supplement it.

So, what you are saying, taking your argiument to its logical end, is that the New Testament is superfluou because we have the Old Testament.

I didn't know JWs believed that.

Mercy!


Ere (for Saladin)