Clarification/Follow-up by AsHBeLL426 on 04/12/05 4:16 am:
That does help a lot but it seems all very confusing to me. I know it is not for me to doubt God, but I never understand why it is so easy for so many people to misinterpert or even have a chance to question the bible. I mean, to people who will believe anything, they can pull scriptures out to believe this. That is why there are so many trinitarian's who can back up this belief by scripture. Personally, I have become very lost by these scriptures. It is all very confusing....

Clarification/Follow-up by hOPE12 on 04/12/05 4:29 am:
Hello AsHBeLL,
I too used to feel lost by the scriptures and the many different interpretations of them. Once I realized that we do not need anyone to interpret the scriptures for us. We do though need to make a study of the scriptures. This takes time and effort and if we take that time and effort, the scriptual understanding comes from God. God has had the Bible written in such a way that if we read it as a whole letter from God, everything falls in place. God can direct us so as we study the Bible contents the answers to our many questions are answered for us.

It was not easy for me, nor is it easy now to always understand things. When I don't understand something, I do research on it until the answer I get satisfies my common sense and need for spiritual understanding.

Take for instance the question you asked me, I spent three hours researching the answer. It did not come naturally but I knew why Thomas called Jesus Lord, but I needed to explain it to you. Basically, if you look in any dictionary the title Lord can be anyone with authority or power. Thomas called Jesus lord because he was far superior and powerful and had much more authority then Thomas did. He knew that Jesus was God's Son and therefor showed the respect that should be given God's son. Lord is also can be the same as Sir.

Anyway don't be discouraged because I too get confused. I though will do much studying and research so as to not be doubting because I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind, what I believe.

Trinitarians have never and will never prove to me that God Almighty and Jesus Christ are the same persons in three with the Holy Spirit. Read in Genesis 1:1 Notice what the Bible says moved to and fro. God's Holy spirit, his active force. Yet many Trinitarians try to teach others that the Holy Spirit is part of a Godhead. You know, three in one. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. From my study of the Bible, I have proved to myself that that teaching is wrong. Why? Because remember when Jesus was in the garden praying to his Father in Heaven. If they are the same, then that would mean that Jesus was mentally sick. Jesus then would be praying to himself!

That is what I mean by using the good gifts that God gives to us to find the truth of the Bible. God gave us common sense, we need to use it so as not to be tricked into believing what is not true.

Take care,
Hope12

Clarification/Follow-up by AsHBeLL426 on 04/12/05 5:38 am:
Thank you very much! I have had so many different people try and convince me and for some reason it never has been easy for me to swallow. I never knew why, but I find it a little peculiar to try and accept something I simply cannot understand.

Thank you Again,

AsHBeLL426

Clarification/Follow-up by AsHBeLL426 on 04/12/05 8:54 am:
Are you saying that Jesus Christ is Ged, and that Jesus and Jehovah are the same person?

Clarification/Follow-up by AsHBeLL426 on 04/12/05 8:58 am:
I find it hard to put together these two things: Jesus is god's son and Jesus is also god! Thats like me saying...I am my mothers daughter but I am also my mother. Common sense does not agree with this arguement. I am sincerely trying to understand this with the logic that God has given to me...

Clarification/Follow-up by Saladin on 04/12/05 11:10 am:

That is what I am saying in broad terms.

God is God the Father.

Jesus is God the Son, who was also known as Jehovah in the Old Testament when he acted in place of the Father as the mediator in his pre-existent and helped God create everything, as per Hebrews 1.1-3.

Like you, I cannot follow your argument, but I do not start out from the same premise as you do.

Let us say that when God made ther comments found at genesis 1.26-27 he was not talking to himself, but to the pre-existent Jesus.

Verification for this pre-existence is plainly evident in many passages of the Great Intercessory Prayer of Jesus, especially noting who is speaking, and to whom he is speaking, the relationships he identifies, and his particular pleadings, and noting that Jesus was NOT speaking to himself to impress his apostles.

John 17

1 ¶ THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are one].

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

==================

God is not the God of double-speak, and neither is Christ Jesus.

Pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you to understanding and do not trust your own powers of logic or reason.

As it was said by them of old time:

Proverbs 3:5-7

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil"

It was good and godly counsel then, and it still holds true today.

:)

Ronnie

Clarification/Follow-up by AsHBeLL426 on 04/12/05 11:38 am:
So if we are not to follow our reason, please explain to me why it is there. I found it EXTREMELY hard to believe that God would have us accept or understand something that can in no way shape or form be explained or understood. We may not be as intelligent as say the Angels or Jesus Christ, but it is unlikely, atleast in my opinion, that God is one to have us believe something that in our logical mind, cannot possibly be understood. That would be blind faith, and that is something I refuse to believe. "God is not the God of confusion" So why, if he is a triune god, is it so confusing and hard to understand?

Clarification/Follow-up by hOPE12 on 04/12/05 11:39 pm:
Hello AsHBeLL,

Jehovaah God is the Father of Jesus Christ. Jesus and Jehovah are two seperate spirit beings.

There is no triune god and that is why your common sense can not believe it and why you find that teaching so confusing.

Jehovah God the one and supreme God Almighty. Jehovah is the personal name of the only true God. His own self-designation. Jehovah is the Creator and, rightfully, the Sovereign Ruler of the universe. “Jehovah” is translated from the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, éäåä, which means “He Causes to Become.” These four Hebrew letters are represented in many languages by the letters JHVH or YHWH
Jehovah God is the Supreme Being, whose distinctive name is Jehovah. The Hebrew language uses terms for “God” that convey the idea of strength, also of majesty, dignity, and excellence. In contrast to the true God, there are false gods. Some of these have set themselves up as gods; others have been made objects of worship by those who serve them.
Jesus said many things when on earth showing us that Jehovah God the Father, a separate spirit being was real. –Notice:
Heb. 9:24: “Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”
John 4:24: “God is a Spirit.”
John 7:28: “He that sent me is real,” said Jesus.
1 Cor. 15:44: “If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.”
Jesus himself referred to his Father as “the only true God.” John 17:3, RS: “[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God [“who alone art truly God,” NE], and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
(Notice that Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as “the only true God.”)
John 20:17, RS: “Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], ‘Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” (So to the resurrected Jesus, the Father was God, just as the Father was God to Mary Magdalene. Interestingly, not once in Scripture do we find the Father addressing the Son as “my God.”)

Jehovah himself said: “Besides me there is no God.” (Isa. 44:6) The apostle Paul wrote that, to true Christians, “there is . . . one God the Father.” (1 Cor. 8:5, 6) So Jehovah is unique; no one else shares his position. Jehovah stands in utter contrast to all such objects of worship as idols, deified humans, and Satan. All these are false gods.
Jesus is spoken of in the Scriptures as “a god,” even as “Mighty God.” (John 1:1; Isa. 9:6) But nowhere is he spoken of as being Almighty, as Jehovah is. (Gen. 17:1) Jesus is said to be “the reflection of [God’s] glory,” but the Father is the Source of that glory. (Heb. 1:3) Jesus in no way seeks the position of his Father. He said: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Luke 4:8) He exists “in God’s form,” and the Father has commanded that “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend,” but this is all done “to the glory of God the Father.”—Phil. 2:5-11;

Now who is Jesus Christ?
The only-begotten Son of God, the only Son produced by Jehovah alone. This Son is the firstborn of all creation. By means of him all other things in heaven and on earth were created. He is the second-greatest personage in the universe. It is this Son whom Jehovah sent to the earth to give his life as a ransom for mankind, thus opening the way to eternal life for those of Adam’s offspring who would exercise faith. This same Son, restored to heavenly glory, now rules as King, with authority to destroy all the wicked and to carry out his Father’s original purpose for the earth. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus means “Jehovah Is Salvation”; Christ is the equivalent of the Hebrew Ma•shi´ach (Messiah), meaning “Anointed One.”
Was Jesus Christ a real, historical person?
The Bible itself is the principal evidence that Jesus Christ is a historical person. The record in the Gospels is not a vague narrative of events at some unspecified time and in an unnamed location. It clearly states time and place in great detail. For an example, see Luke 3:1, 2, 21-23.


Is Jesus Christ actually God?
John 17:3, RS: “[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God [“who alone art truly God,” NE], and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (Notice that Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as “the only true God.”)
John 20:17, RS: “Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], ‘Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” (So to the resurrected Jesus, the Father was God, just as the Father was God to Mary Magdalene. Interestingly, not once in Scripture do we find the Father addressing the Son as “my God.”)

Does John 1:1 prove that Jesus is God? No it does not!
John 1:1, RS: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [also KJ, JB, Dy, Kx, NAB].” NE reads “what God was, the Word was.” Mo says “the Logos was divine.” AT and Sd tell us “the Word was divine.” The interlinear rendering of ED is “a god was the Word.” NW reads “the Word was a god”; NTIV uses the same wording.
What is it that these translators are seeing in the Greek text that moves some of them to refrain from saying “the Word was God”? The definite article (the) appears before the first occurrence of the•os´ (God) but not before the second. The articular (when the article appears) construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous (without the article) predicate noun before the verb (as the sentence is constructed in Greek) points to a quality about someone. So the text is not saying that the Word (Jesus) was the same as the God with whom he was but, rather, that the Word was godlike, divine, a god. of NW, p. 1579.)
What did the apostle John mean when he wrote John 1:1? Did he mean that Jesus is himself God or perhaps that Jesus is one God with the Father? In the same chapter, verse 18, John wrote: “No one [“no man,” KJ, Dy] has ever seen God; the only Son [“the only-begotten god,” NW], who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.” (RS) Had any human seen Jesus Christ, the Son? Of course! So, then, was John saying that Jesus was God? Obviously not. Toward the end of his Gospel, John summarized matters, saying: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, [not God, but] the Son of God.”—John 20:31, RS.
Does Thomas’ exclamation at John 20:28 prove that Jesus is truly God?
John 20:28 (RS) reads: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”
There is no objection to referring to Jesus as “God,” if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Jesus’ own quotation from the Psalms in which powerful men, judges, were addressed as “gods.” (John 10:34, 35, RS; Ps. 82:1-6) Of course, Christ occupies a position far higher than such men. Because of the uniqueness of his position in relation to Jehovah, at John 1:18 (NW) Jesus is referred to as “the only-begotten god.” (See also Ro, By.) Isaiah 9:6 (RS) also prophetically describes Jesus as “Mighty God,” but not as the Almighty God. All of this is in harmony with Jesus’ being described as “a god,” or “divine,” at John 1:1 (NW, AT).
The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from this. Shortly before Jesus’ death, Thomas had heard Jesus’ prayer in which he addressed his Father as “the only true God.” (John 17:3, RS) After Jesus’ resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: “I am ascending . . . to my God and your God.” (John 20:17, RS) After recording what Thomas said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, RS) So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas’ exclamation that Jesus is himself “the only true God” or that Jesus is a Trinitarian “God the Son,” he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31).
Does Matthew 1:23 indicate that Jesus when on earth was God?
Matt. 1:23, RS: “‘Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emman´u-el’ (which means, God with us [“God is with us,” NE]).”
In announcing Jesus’ coming birth, did Jehovah’s angel say that the child would be God himself? No, the announcement was: “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High.” (Luke 1:32, 35, RS; italics added.) And Jesus himself never claimed to be God but, rather, “the Son of God.” (John 10:36, RS; italics added.) Jesus was sent into the world by God; so by means of this only-begotten Son, God was with mankind.—John 3:17; 17:8.
It was not unusual for Hebrew names to include within them the word for God or even an abbreviated form of God’s personal name. For example, Eli´athah means “God Has Come”; Jehu means “Jehovah Is He”; Elijah means “My God Is Jehovah.” But none of these names implied that the possessor was himself God.
What is the meaning of John 5:18?
John 5:18, RS: “This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.”
It was the unbelieving Jews who reasoned that Jesus was attempting to make himself equal with God by claiming God as his Father. While properly referring to God as his Father, Jesus never claimed equality with God. He straightforwardly answered the Jews: “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.” (John 5:19, RS; see also John 14:28; John 10:36.) It was those unbelieving Jews, too, who claimed that Jesus broke the Sabbath, but they were wrong also about that. Jesus kept the Law perfectly, and he declared: “It is lawful to do good on the sabbath.”—Matt. 12:10-12, RS.
Does the fact that worship is given to Jesus prove that he is God?
At Hebrews 1:6, the angels are instructed to “worship” Jesus, according to the rendering of RS, TEV, KJ, JB, and NAB. NW says “do obeisance to.” At Matthew 14:33, Jesus’ disciples are said to have “worshiped” him, according to RS, TEV, KJ; other translations say that they “showed him reverence” (NAB), “bowed down before him” (JB), “fell at his feet” (NE), “did obeisance to him” (NW).
The Greek word rendered “worship” is pro•sky•ne´o, which A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature says was also “used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground.” (Chicago, 1979, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker; second English edition; p. 716) This is the term used at Matthew 14:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus; at Hebrews 1:6 to indicate what the angels are to do toward Jesus; at Genesis 22:5 in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did toward Jehovah and at Genesis 23:7 to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward people with whom he was doing business; at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching King David.
At Matthew 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from pro•sky•ne´o] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.” (At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.) In harmony with that, we must understand that it is pro•sky•ne´o with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God.
Do the miracles performed by Jesus prove that he is God?
Acts 10:34, 38, RS: “Peter opened his mouth and said: ‘ . . . God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; . . . he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.’” (So Peter did not conclude from the miracles that he observed that Jesus was God but, rather, that God was with Jesus. Compare Matthew 16:16, 17.)
John 20:30, 31, RS: “Now Jesus did many other signs [“miracles,” TEV, Kx] in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (So the conclusion we should properly draw from the miracles is that Jesus is “the Christ,” the Messiah, “the Son of God.” The expression “Son of God” is very different from “God the Son.”)
Pre-Christian prophets such as Elijah and Elisha performed miracles similar to those of Jesus. Yet that certainly is no proof that they were God

I hope this helps you not to be so confused AsHBeLL, Jehovah God is the supreme almighty God and ruler of the universe,

Jesus Christ is Jehovah God’s Son and not the same spirit being as Jehovah,

Please do not allow those who try to tell you there is a Trinity because no where in the Bible does the word Trinity nor the teachings of such false doctrine exist. Teachers who teach what is not from God and stumble others or confuse them have a very large responsibility for those teachings. Remember AsHBeLL, use your common sense and if it don’t sit right in your mind and heart, do not believe it. If those teaching the Trinity doctrine can not prove it using the Bible. They do try to twist the scriptures but in reality all it really does is make them look stupid and we must feel pity for them, because they are as sheep without a shepherd.

Take care,
Hope12