Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 12/22/06 3:35 am:
It is rather silly. But no one was WORSHIPING a wall.
But one must understand that there have been several authentic apparitions of Mary. So if news goes out that another appearance might be happening some people go to see it.
Then there are those of fanatic mind that search for images or sighting of holy figures such as the supposed figure of Jesus the appeared on a prison wall.
It was a remarkable appearance of a man with a beard and long hair. It turned out to be mold.
A friend of mine took a picture of a cloud that looked like a figure of Mary. It was interesting but it was just an odd shaped cloud.
But, peddler, I do not believe that all those people were worshipping a wall. We Catholics truly worship only God.
There might be a few who in error also worship Mary, but I have never met a person who did.

Clarification/Follow-up by Rosekeeper on 12/22/06 5:10 am:
I have to disagree Fred, The Bible tells us not to worship idols of any kind, and I have heard that they Pray to statues as of Mother Mary, and so on.

Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 12/22/06 5:23 am:
Fred,

You claim that there have been authentic apparitions of mary. I disagree. The true Mary would want all glory to go to God and would not draw attention to herself. the Holy Spirit does not draw attention to Himself - why would Mary, who is not God?

There may have been indeed been apparitions, but if they draw attention unto themselves, they are not of God and we should definitely not be worshiping, venerating or serving them.

Tom

Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 12/22/06 5:32 am:
Rosekeeper and Toms,
It's OK to disagree with that, a lot of folks do.
But many thousands of people have seen those that The Church has thoroughly investigated and found to be authentic.
I have talked with 2 people who have seen them.
There is no way to convince them that what they saw was not Mary.
Juan Diego was a Mexican peasant to whom Mary appeared and she left an image of herself on hid cloak.
Did you know that the image of Mary on Juan Diego’s cloak has been investigated by scientists and a very small reflection of Juan is in Mary's eye? It could not have been painted there.
How did it get there?
I remember when the world wide news of the apparitions of Mary took place on a Cathedral in Egypt. She appeared up there on the roof for several months.
Thousands of people, including the president of Egypt, saw it.
No one has been able to disprove it and they had many months during which to try.
Many miracles took place during that time.
Miracles often happen during Mary’s apparitions and no one has been able to disprove them.
Mary's apparitons bring attention to God because only through God could Mary appear.
So you can believe what you want.
I will do the same.

Clarification/Follow-up by Rosekeeper on 12/22/06 6:04 am:
Peddler, I had to sign back on after watching Nancy Grace, on the news it showed thousands of couples, going to Rome to Pray to the Lady Modonna, so they could have children, I watched this with my own eyes, so yes, "Catholics do Pray to the Mother Mary and other statues"

Not To God, but mere statues.

Here is what one Church lady said about Mother Mary.

"With her eyes closed and hands clasped in her Lawrence bedroom, Elizabeth Veloso prayed to the Virgin Mary last week as she has every week for the past 25 years."

Clarification/Follow-up by Rosekeeper on 12/22/06 6:12 am:
Those people remind me of the day of Moses, when he went up to the mountain, when God gave him the ten commandments, and when Moses return, he found the people without faith, and making gods out of gold, and Praying and sacrificing to them.

"We are not to bow down, nor make any graven image, nor worship any graven image"

Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 12/22/06 6:37 am:
Rosekeeper,
I pray to lots of people, even my wife.
The word pray means petition or ask.
If I asked you to pray for me because I am sick, would you?
If you asked I would pray for your intention.
In fact I already do pray for you and everyone else on this board.
When I pray to Mary I ask her to pray for me to the Lord our God.
It is part of what is called the communion of saints.
The saints are our brothers and sister in Christ.
There is nothing wrong with asking our brothers and sisters to pray for us.
When I see a statue of Mary I often stop and to ask (pray) her to pray for me.
I DO NOT pray to the statue. The statue can do one thing more than stay where it is.
That is it can remind me to pray and focus on the person I am asking to pray for me to God.

Clarification/Follow-up by peddler7118 on 12/22/06 6:48 am:
Fred
looks like they are worshipping a wall to me.
BTW-Who determines what a true apparition is and what is not
How would you know what Mary looked like anyway? She is dead you know, or 2000 years old.

Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 12/22/06 6:53 am:
peddler,
It might look that way to you, but that does not mean that they are doing that.
If you were there and asked any one of them if they were worshiping that wall, they would either say no or laugh at you.
That's what I do when you make your silly unfounded judgments and accusations. I say NO!

Clarification/Follow-up by peddler7118 on 12/22/06 6:58 am:
fred 666

Mary is dead. We are alive. We can pray for you. Mary cannot.
The story of Juan is a lie,no scientist has said that! So what if people claim there was a woman on a building? Could have been a woman on a building.
If it was a spirit it was of the devil.
The atheist have a field day convincing people Chistians are idiots with this nonsense.

Clarification/Follow-up by peddler7118 on 12/22/06 7:04 am:
fred

Ok , they are worshipping the stain that is on the wall. Same difference,idolatry,stupidity,paganism.

Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 12/22/06 7:10 am:
peddler.
If you were there and asked any one of them if they were worshiping that stain, they would either say no or laugh at you.
Mary's body may be dead but she is not.
Jesus clearly tells us that God is the God of the living, not of the dead and he gave examples of that.
I wish you would start believing what the bible and Jesus says.
Now let is talk about what I said about Juan.
Please PROVE that it is a lie.
I ask you to do that because I know you cannot.
Do you think for one minute that I would tell you that without being able to prove it; there are volumes of research on that.
Oops, I guess you would.
You don't stop and think before you make such asinine statements.

Clarification/Follow-up by Pericles on 12/22/06 7:31 am:

 

peddler

To that I can only repeat the following post, my answer to Hwood's question, and a fitting rebuke to this post of yours, for which you should be ashamed ....

The sermon by "father" Pericles :




This is the Board of Christianity, a board where all aspects involving Christianity are the subject, just as the Domestic Pet Board is a board where all aspects involving pets are the subject.

And just as the Pet board is NOT for pets to ask and answer but about pets, this board is NEITHER only for Christians or for Christianity to ask and answer but ABOUT CHRISTIANITY.

That means : as long as the subject of posts involves in one way or another Christianity, everybody is welcome here to participate.

If it was left to the many self-proclaimed christians there would have to be another 2500+ extra boards, as almost all christians have the nasty habit of assuming to be always and only right (and therefore to be the chosen people out of all others), reason for that extreme wasting and splintering of Christianity today.

Just check this board and the pages upon pages of questions and answers posted here, and you will find out that intolerance and near-hatred within Christianity predominates here, making the relations and communications between Christian and non-Christian posters almost irrelevant!

The entire Christian message of love and forgiveness is gone totally lost for many christian participants of this board, and deliberate inter-Christian infighting has often replaced normal communication.

So better forget what may be the reason that makes others come here : be glad they are here.
Just ask yourself what YOU are doing here, and if you find out please act to that in all your deeds and words, instead of in your words only - as seems to be the unfortunate habit here by too many.




 

Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 12/22/06 1:20 pm:
Fred,

The fact that the Roman religion investigates something and concludes something does not wash when we can read in scripture that such apparitions are not of God and contradicts God's word.

It also does not mean anything when you say that the person is convinced. Our experiences can be quite easily to mis-interpret. Scripture warns us about this many times, for example.

Mark 13:22-23
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
NKJV

I have no doubt that many of the apparitions are indeed real - but real what? If they are spiritual apparitions and they are in conmtradiction to God's word, then they must be demonic.

Tom

Clarification/Follow-up by peddler7118 on 12/22/06 1:36 pm:
Souless
Please understand that if someone is seeking truth that is one thing. Fred ,nor you, have the slightest interest in Christianity.
If you don't like the way you are treated here go away.
BTW Merry Solstice

Clarification/Follow-up by Itsdb on 12/22/06 2:37 pm:
Well Peddler, I can say Ruth was much too obnoxious to confuse with you. And I've spent my time arguing with Mormons and Witnesses so I do understand, but I'm not ready to brand Catholicism a "pagan cult" in spite of the areas that concern me. But bear these two things in mind.

1) There's a difference between laying facts on the table and antagonism.

2) This ain't church. This is an area where I must wholeheartedly agree with Pericles, this is the Christianity Board, it is not a home for Christians to huddle up and weed out the undesirables. All are welcome to participate in a reasonable manner.

Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 12/22/06 3:20 pm:
Steve,

I do agree that all are welcome to participate in a reasonable manner - regardless of who they are or what they believe.

The key is that all need to understand that participation is dependent upon discussing the issues in a reasonable manner.

Tom

Clarification/Follow-up by TTFNUAS on 12/22/06 4:12 pm:
Just for you Peddler.......



;-)

Clarification/Follow-up by madddawg on 12/22/06 4:59 pm:
Matthew 5:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I Corinthians 6 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Clarification/Follow-up by Itsdb on 12/22/06 6:38 pm:
tom,

I agree with you on that. And at the risk of the fury of some, I believe you to be reasonable in your approach. All you have to do is appear and the rocks start flying. Because they disagree with your message they seem to believe you don't have the right to say it, no matter your approach. I find that disturbing.

Steve

Clarification/Follow-up by peddler7118 on 12/23/06 4:57 am:
itsdb
I guess reasonable is a term subject to interpretation.
Calling me a liar , murderer , sodomite , a female as I am male, and calling my God a stupid desert God I find most unreasonable.