Clarification/Follow-up by revdauphinee on 09/28/05 10:53 am:
only God can heal!!and anyone who claims this for themself is wrong in every way possible!God may use a person in his work however it still remains "HIS" work!

Clarification/Follow-up by revdauphinee on 09/28/05 10:53 am:
only God can heal!!and anyone who claims this for themself is wrong in every way possible!God may use a person in his work however it still remains "HIS" work!

Clarification/Follow-up by Erewhon on 09/28/05 1:33 pm:
Correct, Dorothy.

Liz, you have to make room for the will of God and the forces of nature in your computations.

Some diseases are so ravaging that recovery is virtually impossible.

Clarification/Follow-up by sarnian on 09/28/05 5:49 pm:
Hope : did you ever try yourself to do that?

To be born has as consequence that one has to die too.
Some (very) young, some very old. On average around 70 years in the west for most of us.
Doctor's help in that process.
Some babies are born with genetic defects that make them prone to deadly diseases.
They will die early. That's nature. The process behind it is called evolution.
It prevents humanity to become extinct from genetic defects in following generations.

But each and every case is for sure for all involved highly traumatic.
In my volunteer hospice work I feel the same for the odd young child that is brought in here to die.

Clarification/Follow-up by hOPE12 on 09/29/05 5:21 am:
Hi "Sar]nian,

NO I HAVE NOT TRIED IT NOR WOULD I, IT IS AGAINST GOD'S TEACHING.

How can a person claim to have the gift of healing when the Bible clearly states those gifts ended when thee apostles died? When the apostles died, the gift of healing passed away. Paul himself indicated that this would happen. Likening the Christian congregation to an infant, Paul said: “When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a babe.” The point of his illustration was that miraculous gifts of the spirit were part of the infancy of the Christian congregation. They were “the traits of a babe.” Hence, he stated: “They [miraculous gifts] will be done away with.”1 Corinthians 13:8-11

Take care,
Hope 12
BTW: I do though believe in praying for others and for God's will to take place in their life.

Clarification/Follow-up by sarnian on 09/29/05 5:51 am:

Hope,

I note what you posted, but I must honestly agree with the following statement :


I Corinthians 13:8-11 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void or tongues shall cease or knowledge shall be destroyed. For we know in part: and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child.

These verses are often used by Protestants (often Baptist and/or dispensationalist) to prove that the charismatic gifts are not for today; that they have long since ceased.
I have always thought it was one of the poorest, weakest examples of biblical exegesis that I have ever seen, both as a Protestant and as a Catholic.
It seems that - for some Protestants - so many things are to "cease," but I see precious little biblical indication of that.
Miracles are to cease, gifts are to cease, the institutional Church became corrupt and ceased to exist up to the time of Luther, etc.
I just think it is plain silly. Unless the Bible clearly indicates such a state of affairs, we are to assume that the biblical model of Christianity and the Church is normative for all times.

Granted that miracles were greater in apostolic times, but that is not the same as saying they were to cease altogether.
What would the point of that be? Why should God remove all the blessings and roles which He had foreordained for each of us to play?

(Click the text to read more)

Clarification/Follow-up by FormerJesusHelper76 on 09/29/05 6:51 am:
HOPE,

Never said that we need to use his power. I said that we can pray in his name for healing. He is the Healer. No one else.

Clarification/Follow-up by hOPE12 on 09/29/05 7:13 am:
First FormeJesusHelper76,
I stand corrected, yes you never stated that and we can pray for God to help us deal with sickness but it is up to him if he want to heal us or not.

Sarnian,
As to the information you posted, I do not read such trash as what Dave Armstrong writes. He thinks his words are written in stone, but much of them are lies and lack of spiritual knowledge. It is sad that such a person who lies on the trueness of what God truly says.
For an example: "What would the point of that be? Why should God remove all the blessings and roles which He had foreordained for each of us to play?"

So God plans or forordains us to be bad or good?

Sick comments from a sick man.

God has not removed all knowledge or blessing just those having to do with the gifts giving during the time Jesus and his apostles were alive. The great mircles that Jesus and the apostles preformed were and never will happen again in this earth.
Let me try to explain this to you Sarnian:

I was extremely sick ten years ago with Encephelitis, (I think that is how you spell it?? :) ) I was partially paralized and was not able to walk, dress or feed myself. I had trouble just living each day. I now can walk and dress myself and feed myself. Did God miracously cure me? No. Did I pray to God to help me? Yes. Along with my prayers I worked in harmony with them. I worked hard on keeping a positive attitude and I served God from my heart and told others about God and the blessing he has in store for all those that obey him.

Did God cure me or did my positive actions along with my prayers and efforts to help myself? Both, God used my positive attitude and my working along so as to help myself, to help me deal with my situation. I did not receive a miracle cure, but now I can function inspite of my illness and I have become stronger and gained more faith because of it. I was able to gain knowledge and blessings because I put forth the effort.
The difference here is that I must make effort to recieve God's help and blessings.

If we recieve a blessing it is not because someone laid their hands on us a prayed but because we have worked hard for it and have gained God's approval.

Remember, if we do not give, we do not recieve.

Take care,
Hope12

Clarification/Follow-up by sarnian on 09/29/05 7:41 am:

Hope

I guess you're still here today because medical science allowed you to recover.
Though praying to god may give you peace of mind, I doubt if any real medical recovery can ever be attributed to praying to god.

Clarification/Follow-up by hOPE12 on 09/29/05 7:50 am:
Hello Sarnaian,
I agree that medical science and my positive attitude because of my faith in God and wanting to get better helped me.

Because we all have different levels of spiritual belief and faith, science will never be able to prove beyond a shadow what is from the cure science gives and what is fron the spiritual help and strength that God gives to us. We gain help from God but only if we ourseleves put forth the effort and work hard at a goal. I truly believe that prayer does not cure our physical ailments but gives us the strength and power to cope with them and along with medical science and our spiritual positive attitude, that alone can make us feel better and even to the point of overcoming many of the problems or diabilities associated with sickness.

We do not fully understand or comprehend the relationship between the mind and the body. I believe they are closely associated and was created to work together. The positive mind can force the body to do thing that are remarkable. We can say they are mircles from God, not because God has healed us directly but by means of the ability of the mind and body to work together thereby causeing a healing to take place. God has healed us but not in the way those who believe in spiritual healings do. God has healed us because he has created our bodies and minds to work together for our benefit. When we serve God and have works that are in harmony with his will and purposes, we are able to release the healing powers of our mind into our bodies.

We are either positive people and servants of God or we are not. If we are, we do not need another person to heal us, God can by means of our relationship with him do that all by himself, if we are deserving of his blessings. Remember, we do not receive God's blessings unless we are obedient to his principles and laws. No matter what some think they can do, they can not. Only God can cure and bless people. Each of us have the abiltiy within ourselve to heal ourselves spiritually and the other blessings will follow. Maybe we will be sick in this system but soon sickness will be a thing of the past. Only then will true physical ailments be cured permenently.

Take care,
Hope12

Clarification/Follow-up by STONY on 09/29/05 8:00 am:
GOD WORKS THROUGH PEOPLE, HOPE, THATS WHY WE INTERCEED. BUT THANKS ANYWAY FOR YOUR ONE VOTE OF CONFIDENCE. I THINK THAT REVEALS MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW AND WHAT YOU REALLY BELIEVE. I GUESS EMPATHY IS JUST NOT IN YOU....OR AT LEASTY NOT FOR MORE THAN A FLEETING MOMENT.

Clarification/Follow-up by hOPE12 on 09/29/05 8:17 am:
Stony,
Talk about empathy and me not having it Stony. That is okay because God does not ephathize with those who are out and out wrong. As to the one star, I know that you do not like one star rating and I can appreciate that Stony, but how else am I to show I totally disagree with your reply?
Yes, It is true God does work through other peoples kindnesses. However no where or way is anyone cured just by praying with them. I am sorry if you ar offended by the one star but that is what your comments needed to show how I totally disagreed with them.
Take care,
Hope12

Clarification/Follow-up by STONY on 09/30/05 8:44 am:
HOPE, I HASVE BEEN PERSONAL WITNESS TO FAR TO MANY MIRACLES TO CALL IT COINCIDENCE. I KNOW THAT PRAYER AND LAYING ON OF HANDS MAKES A DIFFERENCE, IT IS WHAT JESUS DID. NOW, IF JESUS WAS WRONG PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE THE PROOF IS. ie. "christian" to be christ-
like."

Clarification/Follow-up by hOPE12 on 09/30/05 10:50 am:
Stony,

Yes Jesus cured the sick and raised the dead, but he is God's Son and perfect. We are sinners and not perfect. When Jesus apostles died so did the gifts of miraculous cures of physical ailments. Read 1 Corinthians 13:8-11. The bible does not lie. We are not to ask for divine cure but the strength to cope or deal with our imperfections physically. We however can ask for a spiritual healing and when the bible speaks of spiritual healing it speaks of those men who take the lead in the congregation. These older men are to cure our spiritual needs. We should never confuse the two sicknesses. Imperfect man ca cure spiritual sickness but Jesus who is perfect was given the power to cure the physical sicknesses and even to raise the dead.

In answer to your question, no Jesus is not wrong and never would I say such a thing, but man's ideas and interpretation of what the bible actually says is wrong.

Take care,
Hope12