Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 03/03/09 12:19 pm:
Europe has an illegal immigrant problem but much lower jailings




That's because Europe got neutered . You see the crap that immigrants get away with there ? There are whole sections of cities that are completely lawless except for what the Muslinm cleric dictates .Police don't even venture into these enclaves out of fear.

No my friend . Encarceration of criminals is what civilized people do because civilization cannot tolerate anarchy, and the security threat from those who serve notice to society that they will not be subject to the rule of law.

Clarification/Follow-up by paraclete on 03/03/09 11:57 pm:
Tom you haven't got in quite right war is what civilisation does to prevent anarchy. Criminals are one thing and economic migration is another. At one time civilisation thought it was a great idea to force criminals to migrate to another place. Did we get less criminals? The thing that will force these people to return is no advantage, no jobs and that is happening but the criminals will remain.

So the answer, build big walls to keep the criminals in and the migrants out.

Clarification/Follow-up by labman on 03/07/09 5:59 pm:
''America has been being invaded for centuries, this time you don't want them''

Yes, and a long history of resistance.

Clarification/Follow-up by Mathatmacoat on 03/11/09 4:31 am:
bal you just don't get it. you think that because your nation is wealthy this is something great, but how did it become wealthy? on the backs of slaves. Now slavery has a different guise, you no longer have to go and capture the slaves, they come freely to you because they have nothing where they are and you think this makes your nation great?

Take your head out of the sand and realise that if your nation were truely great it would provide opportunities so those people did not need to migrate. Look at the British empire, now vanished, people didn't find it necessary to migrate to Britain until the empire was destroyed by a false idea called nationalism, an idea that people could only be free if they ruled themselves, however poorly. I wonder where they got that idea.
I have been to some of these places where people were once developing and now what you see is chaos and disaster, failed states and internal strife and this is supposed to be somehow better. No what people see in America is the opportunity to get rich quick, but no one tells them only one in a million actually makes it and most of those have been there for generations and understand the system.

Now my nation did not become wealthy on the backs of slaves and I can tell you we have much of what you do not, proper affordable health care, good incomes, wonderful climate, opportunity for all who put in even a small effort, no servants,no military infrastructure, few bludgers, proper regulation and the knowledge that just as the twentieth century was your century, the twenty-first century will be ours. Are we free, you bet we are

Clarification/Follow-up by bal317 on 03/11/09 5:43 pm:
First Our Nation is suffering financially. Why? Because of the greed of those who would not let the act of slavery close down.
Be it they and I do mean the "Great White Father's",got so use to being so high and mighty in all matters.They felt above any and all Laws. Use to be one culture suffered.Now it's all. Each and every Country has it's level of huge discrimination.All of our elders who were in the status to change things. Simply did not.Because the white culture still had not seen the suffering. Now,we do have a man of color in the White House. Who has the hardship of not only helping people of color, but all people as one. A first in any Country. I have not seen a list of more than maybe 1-5 individuals out of America,reaching out to assist anyother people in this World. Look at America's celeberties,missionaires,government officials,and private American people. Who have sent and spent more funds in assisting those,we never see. But heard their cry out for help. Is America perfect. By no means.
However,we still have the Rights to Voice our concerns and be heard-legally. With a response and showing of such response. And we have a Right to Vote. We don't have to accept just anyone to be Our Leader. We also,assist other Countries with Our very brave Military persons. Migration is a problem, because the control of knowing who's actually on our soil. Has been a very difficult job. Unfortunately,many of those imigrants,do illegal and unhealthy,often mean things while on our turf. And this means punishment. Show me in ANY History Book,where any Country has ever NOT had Blacks as Slaves. Slavery,is any form in which someone is made to do what they don't want to and held without their will,and mistreating them in all ways against their free will. All force and huge abuse.
If you live in such a wonderful place. Be thankful in many ways to those of us who have held the battle field. So you can. As far as climate control. I'm glad to feel the changing of the seasons. It helps one prepare for their own seasonal changes. And it allows us to expierence God's Ever So Changing Hands.

Clarification/Follow-up by Mathatmacoat on 03/11/09 9:18 pm:
Bal not wanting to keep this going but I must correct one thing you said
"Show me in ANY History Book,where any Country has ever NOT had Blacks as Slaves."
My country is not founded on blacks as slaves. Yes there was a small "black", not negro, population here when europeans arrived but they were not turned into slaves, nor were any negro brought here as slaves. They had no need as they had a ready supply of English and Irish convicts to do the work and the "blacks" here had no knowledge of european methods or any method which might be useful. These convicts were released when their sentence was finished. There were, in some outlying places, those who worked for poor wages and food, this could be called slavery, just as the same treatment of migrant workers in your country could be called slavery, but they did have the ability to leave. So my country was founded as a free society not seeking to enslave any person and this is why we sometimes shake our head in dismay when we see the illusion that america serves up as an example to follow. Being able to vote is one thing, being given a real choice is another. Don't think that because Obama is a "man of colour" he won't suffer the same restrictions and be subject to the same influences as any of your politicians are.
As I have said before "blacks" here have a name for people like him, they call them coconuts

Clarification/Follow-up by bal317 on 03/11/09 9:47 pm:
Please google,europeans and slaves.
You will find out the Europeans went to Africa to capture slaves. Slavery ended in Europe,when Europeans felt they could not handle the Negro. Feared their own land would be invaded by such.
The legacy of the Black race. The only race on the face of the World, who's description has changed more than anyother culture.
Negro, colored, black, african american.
The white census taker used a "brown bag" going from door to door. If the person of color was lighter than the brown bag they were classifyed as Mulatto.
Obama is a human being. Which makes me see the ignorance that your area of individuals when describing someone's race. Very backwards. That is nothing to brag about.
I know they would not call anyone here that to their face. Or and yes it would be discriminatory and there are legal charges one could place on them.
The wealth of Our Nation,depends on Education. GO AMERICA.......

Clarification/Follow-up by Mathatmacoat on 03/11/09 10:56 pm:
so your knowledge is souly dependent on google and so you are ignorant of anything not dredged up by a search engine. We never classified out "dark" people that way, we regarded them as fauna until they were given full status and just because some remote uropen ancestor of someone in this nation kept slaves doesn't mean this nation was founded on slavery. Why your own ancestors might have done worse and sold people into slavery. We are not so PC here becuase we are all one we dont need to make racial distinctions when we speak about people. Think about it

Clarification/Follow-up by bal317 on 03/12/09 5:57 am:
Because we are communicating on this PC. It was obvious to me to use what was immediately available. No,I am a Historian who gives speakings on Black History. Just was up at our States Capitol with great progress. However,the descriptive words you use here.Tells me how negative towards the Black culture you are.
Fauna,you were no different than many of the early white Americans. Not knowing what they are looking at. A human is not an animal. But again,ignorance is bliss. Africans did not sale their own. They took them in and used them as servants. Man labled it as them being slaves. However,the Africans were treating them with respect,clean living conditions,and education taught. The white europeans told the African Kings/Queens they would do the same.NOT. If one is not recognized as a human, and their color not noticed. Then that is another way of opaque'ing or coloring them out. If one did not recognize skin color, there would be no use for the tanning beds or lotions that sale in the billions of dollars. Obama would not be called anything other than a man. Not a fruit. I also am a Professional Nurse, so I do absolutely recognize a human body.
Yes, while those ancestors of yours did have slaves. Who do you think was building your area? Maintaining your land, medicating your people, feeding and cooking for them? And when their women or men did not or could not satisfy them, well guess who? But will call those days, unfounded cause they (white europeans) more than likely said. "We'll just let those darker people just lay around while we'll do all the work". No, slaves were making and preparing the very ground your living on right now. Emancipation,and legal paperwork free'd the slaves. American International Ambassadors traveled to foriegn countries to stop slavery and unfairness. It was never a given.
I can see why you don't like America. Because here, you might hold those thoughts. But you'd never say those degrading,negative,discriptive words to a person of color to their face and walk away thinking. No one would legally charge you with a hate crime harrassment charge. Cause they would. It's wrong and very demeaning and with that, it represents hate. Your area might not of held as strong of a hold onto the Black race by allowing them to roam easier. But your knowledge of how to address the situation today. Tells me your not understanding or intellectual enough to display kind, positive current words. And that's ashame. Placing ones opinion out in the open really shows just where they are coming from and just how closed minded one can be. Or better yet. How one does not understand History or Medical facts.

Clarification/Follow-up by Mathatmacoat on 03/12/09 11:28 pm:
Bal
As I said before you don't get it and so you look at my words not rationally but through racial eyes.
The view you express to me is, as far as I can discern, afro-american. It comes out of a background of oppression.
But understand this I did not say the dark skinned people of this continent are fauna, but that is how the europeans who first came here saw them for they had no agriculture, no dwellings, nothing to distinguish them from their surroundings. They lived in small, probally family groups and little association with those outside their tribal group. As far as I am aware none of my ancestors, who came to this nation in 1822, were slave owners but like many they came here to escape oppression. The oppression of those who would "enslave" them as second class citizens and deny them free expression of their religion and culture.
Any negativity I might have towards "dark" people comes from observation of a group of people who just can't get it together, whose culture drags them down and I find this is reinforced by the negative black culture that eminates from America.
Now as I have said to you but you fail to accept there were no black slaves here. Not African and Not indigenous. What lie have you swallowed to believe that the world has grown on the back of the black man. I say to you; only in America. European Men of conscience tore their country apart and killed over 600,000 of their fellows so that your ancestors might be free and you want to talk about the slave owners and put a guilt trip on me about something that never happened here. I think you should broadebn your google searches

Clarification/Follow-up by bal317 on 03/13/09 2:31 am:
Mathatmacoat: I have always enjoyed your responses. Maybe so much cause you are willing to give what you know. And with detail,which I always find beneficial.
I'm glad your ancestors and like many of the white culture people. Did not like slavery and tried to not partake in such.
But, like us all. We can't control the many who did, and it's those that utilized areas to do their great injustice.
I hope some of my words have got you thinking as yours does mine.
Take care