Clarification/Follow-up by Itsdb on 02/13/07 6:11 pm:
Well Hank, in 1837 he was serving in the Illinois Assembly. He wasn't president of the United States or a member of congress. Don't fall into the trap of the history revisionists that interpret Lincoln's words in contemporary terms as opposed to viewing them in light of the culture of the day...or taking them out of context.

Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 02/13/07 7:06 pm:
one more thing .... regarding the spread of slavery into the territories . That was indeed the straw that broke the camel's back . The Congress had for years of debate come up with one compromise after another on the issue . But when the SCOTUS decided to interject itself into the public debate and overturned the Missouri Compromise with the Dred Scott decision the fissure became inevidible . You want to blame anyone for the Thousands of lives .. lost then blame SCOTUS.

Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 02/13/07 8:00 pm:
Who authored the bill that made it law?

not sure what you are asking . Slavery was written into the constitution (article 1 sec.2 clause 3 (Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.) The issue of slavery was always an issue of compromise between the founders and later by the various states . The introduction of slavery into new terrirtories would've altered the balance of power amongst the slave and free states if not delicately handled by compromise in the Legislature .

Clarification/Follow-up by HANK1 on 02/13/07 8:09 pm:


Tom: Mental tranquility, huh? Skepticism so conceived is not merely the use of doubt, but it's the use of doubt for a particular end. Perhaps a calmness of the soul. Skepticism poses itself as a challenge to dogmatism, or those who think they have found the truth.

Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 02/13/07 8:10 pm:
oops forgot the other clauses in the constitution

Section 9 of Article I states that the importation of "such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit," meaning slaves, would be permitted until 1808.

Section 2 of Article IV directs that persons "held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another," meaning fugitive slaves, were to be returned to their owners.

Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 02/14/07 10:47 am:
Hank there is nothing wrong with challenging the conventional wisdom. However it should be backed with at least some new empirical evidence. Revisionism to adjust for the values of the present is what should be guarded against .

Clarification/Follow-up by HANK1 on 02/14/07 3:04 pm:


Tom: I've been busy 'over the way.' Now that I'm through with THAT Board, I can get my mind on Philosophy, Politics et al. Revisionism ... love it!

Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 02/14/07 3:38 pm:
forget that board . All I do on it is 'hit and run' . I don't take it seriously so I can never get offended by what is said there .

Anytime you want to discuss the American Civil War be my guest. I never tire of it . It happens to be one of my hobbies . I probably have 50 books on the war and related matters; and regularily read issues of magazines like 'Blue and Gray' .

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 02/16/07 3:50 pm:
Lincoln was the author of the Emancipation Proclamation which freed Confederate slaves. He was also a champion of the 13th Amendment, even though it was only ratified after his assasination. For these reasons, it is reasonable to call Lincoln the Great Emancipator and a champion of Black Freedom.

Elliot