Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 10/19/06 5:55 pm:
>>>You have no reference point to alledge that there would have been attacks on the US without IRAQ.<<<

Really? I'm sorry, did I miss something about the big hole in the ground in downtown Manhattan where the WTC used to be?

And if that isn't enough, check this out:

1970
February 21: A bomb explodes in the rear of Swissair Flight 330, causing it to crash near Zürich, Switzerland, killing 38 passengers and all 9 crew members.It was done by Palestinian group PFLP

May 8: Avivim school bus massacre by Palestinian PLO members, killing nine children, three adults and crippling 19.

May 30: Lod Airport Massacre by the Japanese Red Army terrorists, killing 26 and injuring 78.

July 21: Four PLO terrorists hijacked a Sabena airliner carrying 99 passengers and 10 crew members on route from Brussels to Tel Aviv. In a mission entitled Operation Isotope, 16 members of Sayeret Matkal posed as refueling and technical personnel and stormed the plane, killing the terrorists and releasing the passengers.

September 5: Black September kidnaps and kills 11 Israeli Olympic athletes and one German policeman in the Munich Massacre.


1973
March 1: Black September takes ten hostages (five of them diplomats) at the Saudi Arabian embassy in Khartoum, Sudan. Three western diplomats are killed.

December 17: Pan Am Flight 110: 30 passengers were killed when phosphorus bombs are thrown aboard the aircraft as it prepares for departure.


1974
April 11: Kiryat Shmona massacre at an apartment building by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members, killing 18 people, 9 of whom were children

May 15: Ma'alot massacre at the Ma'alot High School in Northern Israel by Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine members: 26 of the hostages were killed, 66 wounded.

September 8: TWA Flight 841: Bomb kills 88 on jetliner.

1975
March 5: In the Savoy Operation PLO gunmen from Lebanon take dozens of hostages at the Tel Aviv Savoy Hotel eventually killing eight hostages and three IDF soldiers, and wounding 11 hostages.

1976
June 26–July 4: Hijacking of Air France Flight 139 by Palestinian PFLP and German Revolutionäre Zellen(Tel Aviv-Paris); Operation Entebbe: 4 hostages, one Sayeret Matkal soldier and 45 Ugandian soldiers killed.


1977
March 9: Three buildings in Washington, DC are seized and over 100 hostages taken. Washington city councilman Marion Barry is shot in the chest during the incident and after a standoff all hostages are released from the District building, B'nai B'rith, and the Islamic Center.

October 13: Lufthansa flight LH 181 was kidnapped by a group of four PFLP to Mogadishu it was freed by GSG-9 commando group.

1978
March 11: Coastal Road massacre: Fatah gunmen killed several tourists and hijack a bus near Haifa; 37 Israelis on the bus are killed.

1979
2 November: Sunni militant group of 1,300 to 1,500 men seized the Grand Mosque in Mecca Saudi Arabia.

November 4: Iran hostage crisis, a 444-day standoff during which student proxies of the new Iranian regime held hostage 66 diplomats and citizens of the United States inside the U.S. embassy in Tehran.

1980
April 30: Iranian Embassy siege: Iraqi agents take over the Iranian Embassy in London, gaining hostages. After a number of days, one hostage was killed by the Iraqis, and the Special Air Service assaulted the building to rescue the remaining hostages. One hostage died during the assault.

June 3 A bomb destroys most of the exhibits in the Statue of Liberty story room. No one is arrested, but Croatian separatists are suspected [16].

27 July: A member of the Abu Nidal Organization carried out a grenade attack on a group of Jews waiting for a bus in Antwerp, Belgium, killing a child and wounding twenty others. Said Al Nasr will be convicted for this act.

October 3: Four congregants were killed and twelve others injured in a bomb attack on the rue Copernic synagogue in Paris, France. Responsibility was claimed by the National European Fascists (FNE), but the police investigation concluded that Palestinian terrorists were involved.

1981
October 6: Assassination of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat by Islamic Jihad.

October 20: Attack on a synagogue in Antwerp, Belgium, killing three and wounding sixty.

1982
August 7: Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia set off a bomb in Ankara airport, killing 9 people and wounding 70.

August 9: Rue des Rosiers, Paris gunning and bombing of Goldenberg restaurant : 6 killed 22 wounded - Fatah - the Revolutionary Council

September 14: Assassination of Lebanese Prime Minister Bashir Gemayel and twenty-five others in a car explosion at the Kataeb headquarters.


1983
April 18: U.S. Embassy Bombing in Beirut, Lebanon kills 63.

July 15: Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia bombed a Turkish airline counter in the Orly Airport, killing eight people and wounding over 50.

September 23: Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed, killing all 117 people on board.

October 23: Marine Barracks Bombing in Beirut kills 241 U.S. Marines. 58 French troops from the multinational force are also killed in a separate attack.


1985
February 23: Paris Marks & Spencer shop, 1 bomb, 1 dead, 18 wounded, attributed to pro-Iranian Lebanese Hizbollah

March 9: Paris, Cinema Rivoli, 18 injured, pro-Iranian Lebanese Hizbollah

June 14: TWA Flight 847 skyjacking, Hezbollah, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists

October 7 – October 10: Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking by Palestinian Liberation Front, during which passenger Leon Klinghoffer is shot dead.

October 11: Arab anti-discrimination group leader Alex Odeh is killed when a bomb explodes in his Santa Ana, California office.

November 23: EgyptAir Flight 648 hijacked by Abu Nidal group, flown to Malta, where Egyptian commandos storm plane; 60 are killed by gunfire and explosions.

December 7: Paris, Galeries Lafayette and Printemps shops, two bombs, 51 injured, attributed to pro-Iranian Lebanese Hizbollah

1986
February 3: Paris, Claridge passage (Champs Élysées) 7 injured, another bomb failed to explode in the Eiffel tower, pro-Iranian (Fouad Ali Saleh group)

February 4: Paris, Gibert book shop, 7 injured, Fouad Ali Saleh

February 5: Paris, FNAC-sports, 15 injured
March 17: TGV Paris, 9 injured

March 20: Paris, Galerie Point-Show bombed, 2 dead, 21 injured

April 2: TWA Flight 840 bombed on approach to Athens airport; four passengers (all of them American), including an infant, are killed.

April 6: the La Belle discotheque in Berlin, a known hangout for U.S. soldiers, was bombed, killing three and injuring 230 people, for which Libya is held responsible. In retaliation, the US bombs Libya in Operation El Dorado Canyon and tries to kill Colonel Muammar al-Qaddafi.

September 5: Pan Am Flight 73, an American civilian airliner, is hijacked; 22 people die when plane is stormed in Karachi, Pakistan.

September 8: Paris town hall's post office bombed, 1 dead, 16 injured
September 12: Paris La Défense, Casino Supermarket's restaurant bombed, 43 injured
September 14: Paris, pub Renault bombed, 2 dead, 1 injured
September 15: Paris, police headquarters bombed, 1 dead, 45 injured
September 17: Paris, Rue de Rennes a bomb explodes in the street, 7 dead, 54 injured.
December 25: Iraqi Airways Flight 163 is hijacked. The pro-Iranian group "Islamic Jihad" claimed responsibility.


1988
December 21: Pan Am Flight 103 bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland. At the time, it was the worst act of terrorism perpetrated against the United States, and among the worst acts of terrorism in European history, see FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives. Eventually, Libya admitted that two of its agents carried out the attack.

1989
July 9: Two bombs explode in Mecca, killing one pilgrim and wounding 16 others.

September 19: Suitcase-bomb destroys UTA Flight UT-772 en route to Paris, killing all 171 passengers and crew. Lybian intelligence involved.


1990
October 24: PLF attack in the beaches on Tel Aviv, PLO attack on the US. embassy

1992
March 17: Israeli Embassy bombing by "Islamic Jihad" in Buenos Aires, Argentina; 29 killed, 242 injured.

April 5, 1992 - The Iranian embassy in Ottawa is stormed by members of MEK, an Iraq-supported religious right group.

1993
January 25: Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pakistani, fires an AK-47 assault rifle into cars waiting at a stoplight in front of the Central Intelligence Agency headquarters. Two CIA employees died, see FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives

February 26: World Trade Center bombing kills 6 and injures over 1000 people, by coalition of five groups: Jamaat Al-Fuqra'/Gamaat Islamiya/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/National Islamic Front [4], see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists, FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives, Ramzi Yousef

June: Failed New York City landmark bomb plot, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists

1994
March 1: In the Brooklyn Bridge Shooting, Rashid Baz kills a Hasidic seminary student and wounds 4 on the Brooklyn Bridge in New York City.

July 18: Bombing of Jewish Center in Buenos Aires, Argentina, kills 86 and wounds 300. Generally attributed to Hezbollah acting on behalf of Iran.

July 19: Alas Chiricanas Flight 00901 is bombed, killing 21. Generally attributed to Hezbollah.

July 26: Israeli Embassy Attack in London and a Jewish charity are car-bombed, wounding 20. Attributed by Britain, Argentina, and Israel to Hezbollah.

November 25: Stoning of female competitors in marathon race by ultra conservatives at the behest of clerics begins Islamist uprising in Bahrain.

December 11: A small bomb explodes on board Philippine Airlines Flight 434, killing a Japanese businessman. Authorities found out that Ramzi Yousef planted the bomb to test it for his planned terrorist attack, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists, FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives

1995
January 6: Operation Bojinka plot to bomb 11 U.S. airliners is discovered on a laptop computer in a Manila, Philippines apartment by authorities after an apartment fire occurred in the apartment, by Jemaah Islamiyah/Konsojaya/Abu Sayyaf Group/Ramzi Yousef/Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists

July—October: Bombings in France by a GIA unit led by Khaled Kelkal kill eight and injure more than 100.


1996
January: In Kizlyar, 350 Chechen militants took 3,000 hostages in a hospital. The attempt to free them kills 65 civilians and soldiers.

February 25 - March 4: A series of four suicide bombings in Israel leave 60 dead and 284 wounded within 10 days.

June 25: Khobar Towers bombing -- In all, 19 U.S. servicemen and one Saudi were killed and 372 wounded, by Hizballah Al-Hijaz (Saudi Hizballah) with Iranian support, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists


1997
February 24: An armed man opens fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, United States, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claims this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine".

November 17: Luxor Massacre – Islamist gunmen attack tourists in Luxor, Egypt, killing 62 people, most of them European and Japanese vacationers.


1999
January 3: Gunmen open fire on Shi'a Muslims worshipping in an Islamabad mosque, killing 16 people injuring 25.

April: David Copeland's nail bomb attacks against ethnic minorities and gays in London kill three people and injure over 160.

December: Jordanian authorities foil a plot to bomb US and Israeli tourists in Jordan and pick up 28 suspects as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots

December 14: Ahmed Ressam is arrested on the United States–Canada border in Port Angeles, Washington; he confessed to planning to bomb the Los Angeles International Airport as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots


2000
The last of the 2000 millennium attack plots fails, as the boat meant to bomb USS The Sullivans sinks.

German police foil Strasbourg cathedral bombing plot.

October 12: USS Cole bombing kills 17 US sailors and wounds 40 off the port coast of Aden, Yemen, by al-Qaeda, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists, the Buffalo Six Lackawanna Cell

2001
March 26: Israeli infant Shalhevet Pass is fatally shot in the head by a Palestinian sniper in Hebron.

June 1: 21 civilians, mostly teenagers from the former Soviet Union, are killed by a Hamas suicide bomber in the Dolphinarium massacre in Tel Aviv, Israel

August 9: A suicide bomber in Jerusalem kills seven and wounds 130 in the Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing; Hamas and Islamic Jihad claim responsibility.

The attacks on September 11 killed 2,997 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two U.S. landmarks: the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, and The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia. A fourth plane, originally intended to hit an unknown, but likely prominent, Washington, D.C. target, crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, after an apparent revolt against the hijackers by the plane's passengers; by al-Qaeda



This is just a partial list of Muslim attacks against Democratic and Western countries. 21 of them were against the USA itself or against US ships, planes or citizens. And ALL of them happened before we invaded Iraq. And since we invaded Iraq that number has decreased to ZERO.

So yes, I do have "a reference point to alledge that there would have been attacks on the US without IRAQ." It's called "history".

Clarification/Follow-up by paraclete on 10/19/06 8:52 pm:
ET in amongst all the rhetoric you may have noticed you have proven my point, the war on terror, and particularly the war on Iraq, is hysteria, in that long list you posted you may have observed that there were two attacks on American soil both at the one site, a symbol of american economic power, that symbol no longer exists, these attacks were the obscession of one man, Osama bin Laden. If he wanted to attack you again, he would have done it, but in five years it hasn't happened and the reason is; your troups have left Saudi Arabia by invading Iraq. When will you realise it is your foriegn policy that drives terrorism, and not the other way around.

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 10/20/06 11:56 am:
>>>in that long list you posted you may have observed that there were two attacks on American soil both at the one site, a symbol of american economic power, that symbol no longer exists, these attacks were the obscession of one man, Osama bin Laden.<<<

Huh? What in G-d's name are you talking about?

First of all, there were 4 targets on 9-11, not one. The two WTC towers, the Pentagon and Capitol Hill (or the White House). Three of the 4 targets were hit. Two of the 4 targets still exist, and within a few years the other two will exist again in some form or other. So your argument that OBL won't attack anymore because he has already destroyed his target is completely off base.

Second, what about the attack at the CIA headquarters in 1993? What about the Brooklyn Bridge attack in 1994? What about the "Landmark Bomb Plot" in 1993? What about the plot to bomb LAX in December 1999? What about the Millenium Bomb Plot in 2000? To say that the WTC was the only target is complete BS and not historically accurate.

Finally, OBL and his minions have been talking about new attacks for 5 years now. He has stated his intentions. You have fallen into the typical liberal trap of not believing what the terrorists say in their rhetorric. That's not a trap that yopu usually fall into. When a terrorist says that he intends to kill someone or destroy something, he generally means it. Liberals tend to make the mistake of believing that terrorists' rhetorric is just rhetorric, just posturing for the press, and they don't really mean it. Well guess, what... they do really mean it. OBL has called for attacks against the USA for over 5 years, and that is what he wants to happen.

But he hasn't been able to pull it off, because his manpower is concentrated in Iraq, and because the US intelligence guys are better than many give them credit for. But it is mostly because al Qaeda's manpower is in short supply, and is being concentrated in Iraq, because they know if they lose Iraq, they lose the ideological war as well. The stakes are as high for the terrorists as they are for Iraq itself, and OBL and his cronies can't afford to expend the manpower needed for serious attacks on the US mainland.

In short, your analysis is completely off base, ignores historical fact, and ignores the words of OBL himself. I know that it would sooth your anti-Bush bias to believe that Bush has had nothing to do with the fact that Al Qaeda hasn't been able to attack us again. But it is pretty clear from the facts that your bias is just plain wrong.

Elliot