Clarification/Follow-up by Itsdb on 09/12/06 1:24 pm:
ex, Try it this way, were there no constitution would you still say that by virtue of your existence you have the right to a fair trial?

I would say you have the right to a fair trial by virtue of birth in America - because of the constitution. But, I see no natural 'right' to a fair trial in spite of the constitution. If you do, I would be interested in your reasoning.

Clarification/Follow-up by excon on 09/12/06 3:30 pm:

Hello Steve:

The fair trial thing isn't a good example as others have pointed out, but you know what I mean.

Yes! I believe that by virtue of my existence, these rights are mine, as are yours, yours, and as are everybody's, everybody's.

Our founding documents are simply the first to recognize and codify this universal truth: that all men are created equeal and are endowed by their creator, inalienable rights.......

Now, as you know, I don't buy that creator crap, but it doesn't change the fact that I own those rights, as does EVERYONE (and I'm do mean EVERYONE). But, I'm compelled to ask; do you believe, since I imagine that it was the Christian creator Jefferson was talking about, that your Christian creator would only endow Christians or Americans with these rights?

I kinda think you do, as does tom, and Elliot.

Well, I fer sure don't!

excon

Clarification/Follow-up by Itsdb on 09/12/06 3:48 pm:
Ex,

Come on, give us more credit than that. I'm certain the three of us all believe "all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator..." That's the part we do agree with you on, that in particular - at a minimum - life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are universal rights. But I also think the three of us agree that some aren't natural rights but due to the social contract, such as the right to a fair trial.

Clarification/Follow-up by excon on 09/12/06 4:48 pm:

Hello again, its:

>>>such as the right to a fair trial.<<<

As opposed to what - an unfair trial???? Of course, the right to a fair trial is embodied in the term, "due process of law".

That's why fair is fair, and anything less is unfair. Therefore, trying to limit the rights of any defendants IS, by its very nature, creating an UNFAIR trial. You can't be almost fair.

Besides, the onus should be on the evidence, not on the rights of the accused. IF, he is as bad as he is portrayed, then the government should be able to present evidence to that effect. If the government HAS such evidence, it shouldn't matter how many rights the accused has if he's been caught dead to rights.

However, if the government CAN'T produce evidence, because of national security (or because it doesn't have any), I don't care. NO EVIDENCE - NO CONVICTION.

It isn't good enough for the government to say it HAS evidence, and THAT'S why the accused should be convicted, but it's not going to produce it. Nahhh! Uh, uh!! I don't care how bad they say the terrorists are, if they don't produce evidence, I don't believe it.

As hard as it is for you to believe, prosecutors do lie.

The right to cross examine witnesses against you is a fundamental right. It's very much a part of "due process".

How can you parse the word "fair"?

excon

PS> You do understand, that this discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with who THEY are, but everything to do with who WE are!

Clarification/Follow-up by Itsdb on 09/12/06 5:44 pm:
ex, yes I do do understand that this discussion has everything to do with who WE are, we're just on different planes here. I'm not questioning what our rights under our constitution to a 'fair trial' encompasses, but whether or not a fair trial is one of those universal 'natural' or 'inalienable' right. I don't believe it is.

That doesn't mean it isn't 'reasonable' for everyone in the world to have that right, it's an entirely reasonable, fair and proper right. But I can't - simply by birth - make any claim to that right unless there is a social contract granting me that right. In other words, exercising that right is dependent on the corresponding actions of someone else.

See what I'm saying?

Clarification/Follow-up by excon on 09/12/06 8:42 pm:

Hello again, its:

I'm tryin.....

excon

Clarification/Follow-up by Itsdb on 09/12/06 9:41 pm:
ex,

I'm always tryin...don't stop :)

Steve