Clarification/Follow-up by dimwit on 07/20/06 3:01 pm:

Hello again, Roland:

>>>¤ Children are psychologically harmed by the systematic, around the clock use of sonic booms - resulting in panic attacks, sleep disturbances, bedwetting and other detrimental effects - a form of collective punishment.<<<

And, the Arabs answer????? Strap a bomb on the kid and send him to murder some Jewish children. That'll cure his "phychological harm".

dim

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 07/20/06 3:10 pm:
The original conflict was not about 2 kidmapped soldiers (three, actually). That was merely the latest in a long line of events leading up to this point.

In the past year, Hamas has launched HUNDREDS of Kasam rockets at Israeli towns. They have sent hundreds of suicide bombers (some successful, other not) against Israel. The kidnap of the soldiers is merely one of literally hundreds of attacks by Hamas against Israel.

As for the BS of "rocks against tanks", sorry but that boat don't float. Have you ever seen the damage that a Kassam can cause? We're talking ROCKETS, not ROCKS. The Hamas terrorists are well-armed, well organized and well funded. Don't be fooled into thinking this is just a few kids with slingshots. Hamas is a military organization with military assets and equipment. And Israel's response is entirely proportionate to the nature of the attacks against them.

Furthermore, when you take into consideration that Israel is really at war with not just the PA (pop. 4,000,000) and Lebanon (pop. 4,000,000), but also Syria (pop. 18,000,000) and Iran (pop. 68,000,000), Israel (pop 6,000,000) is outnumbered 15:1. In terms of military size, Syria (3.5 million soldiers), Lebanon (1 million soldiers) and Iran (15 million soldiers) outnumber the Israeli military (2 million including women who hold rear-echelon positions only, just 1.2 million males) by 10:1. And that doesn't include the PA, fo which we have no reliable figures. If you want to talk about fair fights, let's talk about the disparity in size of the force that Israel is likely to be fighting against.

Besides, the concept of "fair is fair" has no place in war. Wars in which both sides are fairly matched go on fo years, and even decades, causing more civillian casualties. I want a war in which one side is overwhelmingly stronger than the other so that the war is over quickly. I want to see this over in weeks rather than years, because wars that drag out for years cause much worse consequences than those that are over quickly. You should be happy if you believe that one side is overwhelmingly stronger than the other, because then the war will be over faster.

Elliot

Clarification/Follow-up by ROLCAM on 07/20/06 3:11 pm:
I am sorry , but I cannot in any shape or
form condone the Arabs answer that you suggest.

You are way out of line.

rolcam

Clarification/Follow-up by paraclete on 07/20/06 3:21 pm:
Roland

In case you havn't noticed militant Islam tipified by Hamas in Palistine and Hezoballah in Lebanon is like the ledgenary beast the Hydria which when you cut off one head two more appear. The solution: strike at the heart. This is what Israel is doing. Misguided perhaps, but necessary from their point of view. Your post is one sided, unbalanced, even if some of what you said represents truth, Israel does't seek this battle, but its response is disproportunate, and intentionally so. It's not for nothing God told the Israelites to destroy the cannanites. Two peoples cannot occupy the same land.

Clarification/Follow-up by dimwit on 07/20/06 4:05 pm:

Hello again, Roland:

There are a couple of concerns addressed here. I think they need to be separated.

Clearly, war causes innocent civilian casualties. It just does. It’s regrettable and sad. But that IS the nature of war. Somebody loses, and people suffer. So, there’s no argument there.

I think your real question is, should this war BE happening, and who started it.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that the response is proportional. It clearly isn’t. The question is, should it be. You say the response should be proportionate. I guess that means you think the Israeli’s should have crossed the Lebanese border, capture some low level Hezbollah officials, kill a few others, and be done with it.

Only, it wouldn’t be done. And, I can’t imagine what would make you think it would be.

World War II started with the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Should we have just bombed a Japanese harbor, and then be done with it? No. We hit back with everything we had, and rightfully so.

If I wasn’t Jewish, I would still love to see Hezbollah destroyed, because I’m an American. Hezbollah sent a suicide bomber who killed 241 United States Marines, and I want to kill a whole lot more of them, than 241.

The real cause of the conflict is a genocidal Islamist culture which must be uprooted by a process roughly akin to the denazification of Germany after WWII.

dim

Clarification/Follow-up by Itsdb on 07/20/06 4:51 pm:
Roland,

>>The whole might of the U S A,
the main cukprit in what is happening<<

Surely you know better than to consider the USA as the main culprit. The USA did not fund or arm Hezbollah, fire their rockets, kidnap Israeli soldiers or strap bombs on Palestinians. If it weren't for the USA's might behind Israel there wouldn't be anything to discuss, the terrorists and their sympathizers would see to Israel's destruction. Where would the proportion be without the US as their friend and ally?

>>is the green light
that makes Israel with their
nuclear capability so disproportinate.
HOW ABOUT THIS NUCLEAR CLUB ??<<

The green light is to eliminate terrorism. That's a very good thing.

>>I really cannot see the scales as being even!!<<

Why are you trying?

Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 07/20/06 6:17 pm:
it is a relatively modern meme that says civilians should be spared the ravages of war . I'm not sure ,but I have a sense that proportionality and limited rules of engagement actually create a situation where warfare is prolonged but the ultimate carnage is no less if not greater .

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 07/20/06 7:37 pm:
Rolcam,

>>>If they think Syria and Iran are to blame, why let them get away with it.<<<

Who says they will get away with it.

But first things first. Israel has a continuing threat right on its borders in the form of rockets being fired from Gaza and Lebanon. That threat has to be neutralized before Israel can take action against Iran or Syria. Once that threat is dealt with, then Israel can look at its options regarding Iran and Syria. A four-fronted war is much harder to fight than a two-fronted war, so it makes sense that Israel neutralize the two fronts that are the current threat, and then consider the posibility of taking on the additional fronts of Iran and Syria. Remember, Israel is outnumbered 10:1 in a four-cornered war, and 20:1 if only the Israeli men fight, and the women stay back, which is the most likely scenario. So defeating Hamas and Hizbolah is the first goal, and any actions against Iran and Syria is secondary.

Here is one final question for you, Roland. I agree that most of the Lebanese people and even most of their government are innocent victims in all this. But if that is true, then the Lebanese military should be trying to neutralize the threat posed by Hizbolah. The Lebanese government should be taking action to weaken Hizbolah. So far, they haven't. With the exception of some press statements in which they have denounced Hisbolah, they haven't done anything to solve this issue and neutralize Hizbolah. And the people of Labanon outnumber Hizbolah on the order of 100:1. Why haven't the people and the government of Lebanon done anything to eliminate Hizbolah as a threat?

I'm not saying that the Lebanese people and government are guilty parties, but there has to be some responsibility on their part to take action. For years the Lebanese have allowed Hizbolah to arm themselves and set up these attacks. For years Hizbolah has been a full-fledged member of the Lebanese government, and have been an accepted part of Lebanese society. The people and the government, instead of putting the terrorists in jail where they belong, made them government officials and voted for them. So while I don't think that the Lebanese people are guilty of firing rockets at Israel, I hold them responsible for creating the political climate in which Hizbolah still exists and was able to arm itself for these attacks. I hold them responsible for allowing themselves and their political system to be used like this. And I hold them responsible for giving the terrorists 14 seats in the Lebanese Parliment. Ditto for the Palestinians and their vote for Hamas as the governing party in the PA.

By the way, I don't hold the Lebanese solely responsible for this. I hold the UN responsible, because their "peacekeeping" force allowed Hizbolah to arm themselves right under their noses. They knew about it and did nothing.

I blame Ehud Barak for pulling out of Lebanon in 2000, and giving Hizbolah the chance to regroup and re-arm themselves instead of finishing the job he started.

And I blame myself for backing Sharon's pullout from Gaza that allowed Hamas to build thousands Kassam rockets over the past year that allowed them to attack Israel. To be fair, I don't think this would have happened if Sharon were still in power. But he's not, and the pullout afforded Hamas the opportunity to pull this off, and I backed it. I was wrong.

But the point is that the people of Lebanon and the PA are not the innocent lambs that you would have us believe.

Elliot

Clarification/Follow-up by ROLCAM on 07/21/06 10:36 am:
I just came across a recent article
which endorses the stance I have taken in the firts place:-

On Jan. 29 Israel returned 436 virulent terrorists to neighboring Arab countries in exchange for three Israeli bodies and one businessman.
By agreeing to this trade, Israel shows the rest of the world that they cannot possibly be the evil force they are sometimes perceived to be.

They are showing the world that they value human life and that each person is important to them and every effort will be made to save them.

All that is over now.
For 2 soldiers captured and 29 Israeli's dead, 309 persons in Lebanon has to die.
For 1 soldier captured, more than 60 Palestinians has to die.

Compared with their former stance this violence is excessively disproportionate.

rolcam.

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 07/21/06 7:00 pm:
Roland,

You have it exactly wrong. By taking the actions that they did in January, Israel showed that it was willing to take chances for peace, as long as they believe that peace will really come out of it.

But with the kidnapping of 3 more Israelis, it has been clearly proven that the terrorists are NOT looking for peace, they are looking for hostages to trade for Israeli prisoners. And Israel has proven that no matter how much they play the part of the good-guy, the Muslims will attack anyway.

Clearly playing the part of the good-guy didn't work. Clearly playing the part of the good-guy only resulted in new attacks.

The definition of "insanity" is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. If Israel were to play the part of the good-guy again, expecting that THIS TIME it will result in peace, they would be insane. And Israel is NOT insane, especially when it comes to their national security.

It was time to try something different, something which has brough long periods of peace in Israel's past. Taking on the terrorists in all out offensives succeeded in bringing 14 years of relative peace between 1973 and 1987.

We know that smashing the terrorists works, because it has worked in the past. We know that playing the part of the good-guy doesn't work. Ergo, the choice was simple... Israel had to take military action against the terrorists attacking them.

Elliot