Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 01/16/06 8:54 am:
Of the 1,945 miles of southern border only about 60 miles are actually guarded. The wall in San Diego effectively works . I'm not talking iron clad . The exception will still figure how to get here but Operation Gatekeeper has been a success, . Up to 2,000 illegals per day had been pouring through the backyards of Imperial Beach, Calif .But the new fence has reduced the flow to a trickle. Building a simular hi-tech wall from the Pacific to the Gulf would be expensive .But compared to the cost of having them here it would be a bargain . Don't think so ? Ask the Israelis .

Clarification/Follow-up by excon on 01/16/06 9:37 am:

Hello tom:

Well, I dunno. All the Mexicans coming here want to do, is trim my bushes. The Palestinians who breach Israel’s border want to murder them.

And, this is the problem with “rightward” thinking. You can’t get past the title “illegal”. Clearly, you think bombthrowers and leafblowers are in the same category simply because they’re both doing “illegal” things. However, if you simply changed the law, then the workers coming in would be welcome. Let me say that again: If we changed the law, the workers coming in would be welcome!

Conversely, changing the immigration policy in Israel would mean their demise. Changing the law won’t make a murderer a good guy. It just won’t. But in THIS situation, changing the law will change a lawbreaker into a good citizen. Clearly, the LAW is wrong, not the people.

Same thing with pot. You cannot get past the fact that it’s illegal. I thought you were a little deeper than that.

excon

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 01/18/06 8:50 am:
Excon,

>>>But for the law, these people would be welcomed. To me, that makes the law wrong.<<<

It's not the law that makes them unwelcome. It's the fact that the BROKE the law. If they had done what many of their compatriots did, and immigrated legally or received legal work-visas, they would be welcomed. The law allows for immigration: if it didn't I would agree with you that it was wrong. But if the law allows for immigration, and the illegals don't follow that law because it is too inconvenient or because they can't obtain a visa legally for whatever reason, then it's not the laws' fault. It is the fault of the immigrants. Why should anyone reward illegal activity?

Elliot

Clarification/Follow-up by excon on 01/18/06 10:28 am:

Hello again, El:

>>>The law allows for immigration: if it didn't I would agree with you that it was wrong.<<<

Then I presume you subscribe to the dumb Mexican theory. Let’s see, I could pay a coyote $1,500 to get me to America, even though I only make $2 a day. Or, I could leave home and try to get through the 120 degree desert in summer. Yeah, I know it’s treacherous, but I’m good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I could do it legally, but what fun is that?

excon

PS> Even if you didn’t know about the law (AND YOU DON’T), simply by the fact that 1,000’s die in the desert every year, convinces me that they have no alternatives other than to risk their lives and fortunes. After all, I don’t think Mexicans are stupid. Apparently, you do. That, or Mexicans are so vile, that they’d rather break the law to do something that they could do legally, if they only wanted to.

You don’t understand anything about human nature. And, you surly don’t know the law.

excon

Clarification/Follow-up by excon on 01/18/06 10:28 am:

Hello again, El:


I said:

>>>But for the law, these people would be welcomed.<<<

You said:

>>>It's not the law that makes them unwelcome. It's the fact that the BROKE the law.<<<


Huh?

excon

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 01/18/06 12:03 pm:
Excon,

>>>Huh?<<<

Don't grunt, it's impolite.

What's so hard to understand? You are of the opinion that the law is wrong. I am of the opinion that the people who break the law are wrong, and the people who condone them doing so are wrong. The law itself is fine.

>>>Even if you didn’t know about the law (AND YOU DON’T), simply by the fact that 1,000’s die in the desert every year, convinces me that they have no alternatives other than to risk their lives and fortunes.<<<

Why do they have no alternatives? What makes it impossible for them to get a legal visa? Could it be that they have criminal records in Mexico? That is the predominant reason that people find it impossible to get visas. And if they have criminal records, I don't want them here any more than I want Castro's criminals here.

(In case you didn't know it, Fox is taking a page from Castro's book and emptying his jails and snding his criminals to the USA for us to deal with instead of him. And its being done with malice aforethought. Why should we allow this to occur?)

What other reason do they have for not waiting for a visa? Poverty? Sorry, not my problem. We have our own poor to worry about, and not enough assets to deal with them. We don't need Mexico's illegals as well. Mexico's poverty is Fox's responsibility, not ours, and he needs to start living up to those responsibilities instead of pushing them off on us.

So what other reason is there besides financial gain of the illegals and past criminal records of the illgals to not wait for a legal visa?

As I said, the law is fine. It provides for a secure border, and if we enforced it, we'd all be safer. But we don't.

By the way, what makes you think that Americans wouldn't do the jobs that illegal Mexicans do? I mow my own lawn. But even those in my neighborhood that use a lawn guy use a WHITE GUY who is perfectly happy doing "Mexican" work. My pool guy and his assistant are both white. The guy who delivers my lunches from the local restaurant is Russian, not Mexican. There are plenty of college kids who would love to get jobs as waiters or busboys in restaurants in order to cover their education costs but can't because all the jobs are taken by illegals who work for below-minimum-wage. Where did you get the idea that that stuff is only done by Mexicans, and Americans wouldn't do such menial labor?

The bottom line is that there is no excuse for illegal immigration, and there is certainly no excuse for legalizing it. The poverty of the alien in question is not my concern. If he wants to come here to work, let him do so legally. And if he can't do so legally because of a criminal record, there is no reason to let him do so illegally.

Elliot

Clarification/Follow-up by excon on 01/18/06 1:19 pm:

Hello El:

Oy Vey!

>>>Why do they have no alternatives? What makes it impossible for them to get a legal visa? Could it be that they have criminal records in Mexico?<<<

Your ignorance is overwhelming. Inherent in your statement is your incorrect assumption that Mexico is like the USA. You assume that Mexico has an immigration law, but you know absolutely nothing about it. You assume that the people coming here are criminals, and that assumption belies facts easily available to you. But you’d rather spout O’Reillyisims instead of learning what’s really going on. The only thing that’s clear from your statement above, is that you know absolutely nothing about Mexico.

What makes you think Mexicans keep criminal records? Because we do? What makes you think that an ordinary Mexican can walk up to the immigration window and get a passport? Because we can? By the way. I have a criminal record in Mexico. It’s under a name I made up. Why? Because the cops didn’t ask for ID. What makes you think that Mexicans carry ID? Because we do? What makes you think they care about any of that stuff? Because we do?

You hold the typical ugly Americans view of the world. You make the assumption that everybody in the world should be measured against our standards.

I’m not going to try to convince you that ordinary Mexicans can’t get visas. I’ve said it many times here, and you’ve just basically discounted what I’ve said. You instead want to spout Limprodisims. Certainly, if you think that the only people who die in the desert trying to get here are criminals, then I understand why you think it’s ok.

But, in fact, they are not. They are ordinary people. Let me ask you this. Why would a criminal want to blow leaves or make beds in hotels once he's here? If he’s a criminal there, does crossing the border suddenly rehabilitate them? You are so off the wall.

>>>By the way, what makes you think that Americans wouldn't do the jobs that illegal Mexicans do? >>>

What makes you think I don’t think that? Oh sure, those jobs would be filled, but the price of your salad and your dinner at your local restaurant will increase substantially. I’ll bet your right wing business owners won’t like that. Me? I wouldn’t care. I don’t own a restaurant anymore, and I don’t eat lettuce.

I’ll stop now. You’re not going to be convinced by the facts, so I’ll stop giving them to you.

excon

Clarification/Follow-up by excon on 01/18/06 1:38 pm:

Hello again,

I'm glad I said that last thing. It help to clarify my thinking.

I have only ONE horse in this race - only one. I'm not a Mexican. I don't know any Mexicans in this country, legal or not. And, I don't employ workers, legal or not.

I do consume goods and services that would increase in price if there were no illegal workers, but that's not going to make me go broke.

Nope, my only intererest in the matter, is the loss of innocent life in the desert. A loss of life that you seem so cavalier about.

Personally, I could care less whether they stay poor on the farm in Mexico.

excon

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 01/18/06 1:43 pm:
>>>I’m not going to try to convince you that ordinary Mexicans can’t get visas. I’ve said it many times here, and you’ve just basically discounted what I’ve said.<<<

And yet many of them do get legal visas. I wonder how that happens. I hear you saying that Mexicans can't get visas, and yet many of them do. And the fact that at least some do belies your words. It's not quite as impossible as you would have us believe.

And whether it is easy for them to do so or not, or even whether it is possible for them to do so or not is NOT OUR PROBLEM. We should not have to allow our laws to be broken because of other countries' issues.

So please explain to me why it is so tough for some Mexicans to get visas when other can. And then please explain to me why it is my problem.

As for restaurant costs going up, you may be right. Prices might go up. And if that happens, domestic laborers will be fired, bringing labor costs down. Either that, or people will be willing to pay more for a restaurant meal. Either way, nothing would really change. That's how free economies work.

Of course, if the libs would just stop trying to legislate a minimum wage and just let the economic conditions dictate the wages, NONE of this would be a problem. But that is a discussion for another time.

The bottom line is that, either prices will rise and people will be willing to pay more, or they will rise and fewer people will buy, in which case prices will be forced back down. Either way, an economic equilibrium will be met.

But none of that should dictate immigration law or be dictated by illegal immigration. And an economically savvy businessman knows that.

Elliot

Clarification/Follow-up by excon on 01/18/06 2:32 pm:

Hello again, El:

>>>So please explain to me why it is so tough for some Mexicans to get visas when other can..<<<

Well, now we’re getting somewhere. At least you’re asking - well at least challenging me. Cool.

Mexico is a corrupt country. El jefe (the boss) runs things. If you want something, even legal things, you need to pay La Mordida, or the “bite”. You know it as the vig.

Because we’re not as corrupt, you can get things here without paying the vig. Mexicans can’t. So, even if a Mexican is entitled to a (free) passport, it doesn’t work out that way. Richer Mexicans pay the bite or are connected. I’m sure there are the poor ones who’ll save for years to pay also.

Yes, the jefe runs the immigration office, the police office, the governors office, the senators office, etc.

Then there are the Mexicans who don’t want to pay, or they can’t. So, they come looking for jobs through the only portal we left for them. We left that death trap for them because we didn’t believe anybody would actually try it. We were wrong.

>>>And then please explain to me why it is my problem<<<

Innocent loss of life in OUR desert is OUR problem. You don’t think so? Ok. You’re cold as ice.

excon

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 01/19/06 8:23 am:
So... your response to me is that because the Mexican government is corrupt, we should change our laws so as to make illegal activity legal, thus further weakening our already weak borders. And the USA should pick up the costs of illegal immigration... you know, the costs of medical care, welfare, various social programs, etc. because the Mexican government is corrupt.

Essentially you would have the USA pay a vig instead of the Mexicans.

Bull.

>>>You don’t think so? Ok. You’re cold as ice.<<<

I never claimed otherwise. You're just figuring it out now? And we've been communicating here for, what, 5 years? Yes, I'm a cold SOB. But the Mexican government's corruption is NOT my problem, and I see no reason that we should be picking up the tab caused by their corruption. No government ever governs without the consent of the people, even in an autocracy. The people outnumber the government and the military by thousands to one. If the Mexican sheeple are too afraid to act in their own defense either through civil disobediance or through an outright revolution, it is NOT incumbant on the USA to foot the bill. A for "Innocent loss of life in OUR desert"... well, you rolls the dice, you takes your chances. People crossing a desert by themselves know the risks involved. Some make it, others don't. Why is that my problem?

Besides, if we ENFORCE our borders instead of opening them up like a seive, fewer people will end up dead in our desert.

Elliot