Clarification/Follow-up by sissypants on 01/08/06 1:52 pm:
hi excon, this war makes me sick! i can't find a single good thing to say about it! thank god i don't have any children over there! i would like to recommend the armed services to our youth but i can NOT!!!!!


12 Thought Dead After Copter Crash in Iraq
By SAMEER N. YACOUB, Associated Press Writer
2 hours ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. Black Hawk helicopter crashed in northern Iraq, killing all 12 Americans believed to be aboard, while five U.S. Marines were slain in separate weekend attacks, the military said Sunday.

The deaths came as Iraqi police said a kidnapped French engineer was released by his captors.

The UH-60 Black Hawk crashed just before midnight Saturday about seven miles east of the insurgent stronghold of Tal Afar, a northern city near the Syrian border, the officials said.

Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 01/09/06 9:29 am:
the study's narrow parameters were :would extra body armor prevent combat deaths due to torso wounds ? It did not get into factors of mobility and effectiveness of troops wearing the extra weight .

"In response to the changing battlefield conditions and as new technologies emerge, the Army continues to develop improvements to soldier protection equipment to enhance survivability and mobility," Army spokesman Paul Boyce said Friday.

In the middle ages soldiers were covered head to toe with the best armor possible . All that did was make the enemy adjust tactics ;and do a little inventing of their own . The cross bow was the result. Covered with this heavy armor during the Crusades they treked to the Middle East and confronted lightly dressed more mobile enemies with thinner ;lighter swords . They did not fare well .The weight of their armor was a disadvantage .

Clarification/Follow-up by excon on 01/09/06 9:50 am:

Hello tom:

And, that's exactly why I joined the Navy.

excon

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 01/09/06 3:34 pm:
To add to Tom's point above, an armored man in the Middle Ages who was de-horsed was unable to move, unable to get up, and was helpless against an unarmored enemy. Furthermore, during the crusades, more men died of heat-prostration in their armor than were killed by the sword in battle. They literally cooked themselves to death in iron cans.

Regarding modern times, aside from the mobility issues of increasing HumVee armor (which is contrary to the stated purpose of the Hummer in the first place: a fast, agile personnel vehicle that can be lightly armed with a squad weapon. It is meant to be able to quickly go where other vehicles cannot, like up steep embankments and sand dunes. If you put armor on a hummer, you are eliminating its ability to carry out its stated purpose) there's the issue of environmental conditions. It's 120 degrees in the shade in the summer over there; if you armor up a hummer, the occupants will likely roast alive, just like the armored knights of the crusades. Even with modern A/C equipment, you can only lower the temperature inside the vehicle about 20 degrees... which means the insides of the vehicle on a hot summer day could be as high as 100 degrees, even with A/C. Those vehicles need to be open in order to be air-cooled, or the passengers will die of heat-stroke. (BTW, that is an occupational hazard for tank drivers too, which is one reason why armor has such a hard time in desert environments. The sand is the other reason.)

Elliot