Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 10/18/04 2:17 am:
No one is saying American Democracy and freedoms. Freedoms take on many faces.Obviously there will be an Iraqi face on it as there is a Turkish face in Turkey that is different than the Phillipine democracy .There are great differences between Canada and the United States.

I don't think it is a question of desire as much as if people are willing to weather what is usually a lenghty transitional period.Democratization takes constant effort and engagement,and if that is defined as quagmire then so be it .

Our revolution took 7 years ;We went from a transitional period with the Articles of Confederation to the Constitution and the election of George Washington that lasted another 6 years. Other nations had an even tougher transitional period.

There was a time when people said the cultures of the Far East were incompatable to democracy .Can anyone say that today ?

Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 10/18/04 5:09 am:
you are right ;not only are others holidays not honored in war ;rarely are common holidays honored. Washington attacked Trenton after the German Hessians had finished a night of Christmas eve revelry .He caught them by suprise and in no condition to fight .

There is one great exception . In 1914 there was an undeclared truce on the Western Front . Legend has it that German and British soliers could be seen playing soccer together in no-man's land until the ball was deflated when it hit a barbed wire entanglement. They exchanged food and sang Christmas songs to each other .Arthur Conan Doyle called it the "one human episode amid all the atrocities which have stained the memory of the war".


The commanders of both sides refused to allow their troops to repeat the truce for the rest of the war.

Clarification/Follow-up by Yiddishkeit on 10/18/04 10:30 pm:
Tom we (as Americans) fought for our own democracy and freedom...let them die for their own. Hell if the White House wants, they can spend money on guns and ammo on backing a side, but our men deserve better than to be put in harms way.

Bobby

Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 10/19/04 2:11 am:
we should not have stayed in all the other countries we liberated then; Germany ;Japan ;S.Korea ;The Balkans ;Afghanistan ;We kept a presence in Kuwait for a decade ;why ? just leave them to their own devices? When did Democrats become isolationists ?

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 10/19/04 10:02 am:
>>>It's obvious we don't have the control in Baghdad<<<

I disagree. Baghdad we have control over. It's FALUJA that we don't have solid control over, and it is the terrorists from Faluja that keep attacking Baghdad and other areas. Control Faluja and the rest of the Sunni Triangle and the rest of the country will fall in place.

Elliot

Clarification/Follow-up by Yiddishkeit on 10/19/04 11:09 am:
Allright guys...

**When did Democrats become isolationists?**

This is the sort of party rhetoric that has our country headed towards unrest. It's not about party differences and we didn't set out to liberate Germany or Japan. After Pearl Harbor we destroyed two major Japanese cities in a heartbeat. You want to go on a liberating mission...try China. Winning a war leaving the people to their own decisions does not make democrats isolationists either. Every dime of democrat money toward the rebuilding process as much as republicans. As far as democracy we gave our own blood for our own democracy and we were isolated by ourselves doing so.


**terrorists from Faluja that keep attacking Baghdad**

Doesn't matter where there from. So what that they are vacationing from Faluja, they do so on a daily basis. Given their history and track record it's to costly to attempt to maintain a control in their country with this situation.




Bobby