Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 05/25/04 2:40 pm:
Chou,

>>>Force never works to solve any problem. <<<

What history books have you been reading?

Force has solved mor problems throughout history than any other form of problem solving. In fact, it has solved more problems and brought more situations to resolution than all other forms of problem solving combined. Sometimes we are satisfied with the result: the creation of the United States was the product of force, as was the freeing of the German Concentration Camps. Others are less satisfactory: the rise of Stalin, the destruction of Jerusalem, etc. But in all cases, the situation became resolved as a direct result of the use of force.

If Von Clauswics was right when he said that war is simply the constinuation of diplomacy by non-diplomatic means, then ALL DIPLOMACY is based on the threat of force. Countries negotiate with each other because they are afraid that the other country will otherwise go to war with them. Governments have the power to rule (whether they are elected or not) because they have the army and the police force available to enforce their rules. Force is the real power that brings order out of chaos. Well... that and money.

And if we understand that, then we understand the true nature of government... and of man in general.

Clarification/Follow-up by XCHOUX on 05/25/04 4:02 pm:
Elliot: You didn't address the mistatements you made about the Chicago mob. Nice try at deflecting attention from your misstatement!


Governments and tyrants come and go throughout history, the only real progress in the world has been through science and education.

I will concede that American force has made it possible for change as we have not conquered, but educated and aided. That's one reason why I love America!

Clarification/Follow-up by XCHOUX on 05/25/04 5:18 pm:
To guys: I forgot about e-mail. Thanks.

Clarification/Follow-up by Itsdb on 05/26/04 7:51 am:
ex, while it's illegal there is a line already drawn. Do we waver on that line and let some off the hook and not others? If it's illegal it should be enforced, period, even if I think smoking a little weed is no big deal. If laws are arbitrary then the law is irrelevant. If people choose to break the law they should expect consequences, it doesn't matter if they like the law or not. Public officials like the mayor of San Francisco and the Sandoval County Clerk of NM who pick and choose which laws to enforce and which to disregard and disobey should likewise pay the consequences. Those lines are there for a reason.

Steve

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 05/28/04 9:59 am:
Excon,

>>>So, you're telling me that if they outlawed safety pins, you'd throw all yours away.<<<

Yes.

>>>No, don't be ridiculous, you say. They wouldn't outlaw safety pins, that's stupid. However, if they did, I would quietly throw out all my safety pins. If my neighbor happened to get busted with illegal safety pins, I'll stand out by the driveway with my family clucking my tongue as they lead them away in handcuffs, about respect for the law.<<<

If they outlawed safety pins, I would throw mine away. If I disagreed with the law, I would try to get the law changed. But I would not keep illegal safety pins just because I disagree with the law, because I have no interest in either paying fines or going to jail.

>>>I'm not suggesting that you smoke pot in order to demonstrate your view, but I think standing mute while your neighbor is being screwed is quite rude and hypocritical.<<<

He's not being screwed. He knew the consequences of disobeying the law and he did it anyway. His problem, not mine. In the meanwhile, I will tell anyone who listens that I think that pot should be legalized. But I will not support people who break the law... even if I disagree with that law. That is neither rude nor hypocritical. Rude is breaking the law in front of me and telling me I'm wrong for not supporting you when you get arrested. Hypocritical is talking about changing the law at the same time that you are breaking the law.

Chou,

I'm really not up on the state of affairs of the Chicago mob. I'll take your word for the fact that the mob was never cleaned up in Chicago. But that was NOT THE POINT OF WHAT I WAS SAYING!!! What I was saying is that there is nothing hypocritical about a person upholding the law, even if he disagrees with the law, just as Ness did.

>>>Governments and tyrants come and go throughout history, the only real progress in the world has been through science and education.<<<

Actually, most progress throughout history has stemmed directly from war. Everything from the video camera to the microwave oven to the Humvee was built for military use, and only found 'public' use after the fact. Even the cotton gin, which can be argued to have touched off the industrial revolution, was the subject of violence in the civil war. The other major development that touched of the industrial revolution was the steam engine... which was created for it MILITARY application: military control of the seas by steamships. Iron replaced bronze because it made better swords. Steel replaced iron for the same reason. In fact, most developments throuought history can be traced back to a military origin... even pizza created by Roman army cooks during seige warfare as a way to use old bread, cheese that was starting to go bad, and meat that could not keep to feed a military that was far from home and low on resources. It actually represented a new way of provding meals for armies.

Elliot