Clarification/Follow-up by XCHOUX on 05/19/04 4:52 pm:
Elliot:! That was my feeble, I guess, attempt to be funny! Guess it didn't work for you.

Kindest regards, Chou

PS Haven't you seen COPS?
It's on Fox even! lol

Clarification/Follow-up by tomder55 on 05/19/04 5:16 pm:
Had I not screwed up and hit the send button instead of the the amend button I would've added that ;yes if we are showing our shock at the brutal treatment of Iraqi prisoners in custody ,then we should look inward and clean house at home also.

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 05/20/04 7:57 am:
Alright... down to brass tacks.

Fr Chuck: were the abuses that you witnessed in a TEXAS jail, or one in some other state?

Excon: is Texas the only state in which prisoners are 'abused'?

Chou: no I am not trying to be funny.

The point is that Excon tried to link the fact that a different Texas governor screwed up to George Bush, and then tried to link that to Abu Ghraib.

Unless you can claim that 1) Bush is the reason that this other Texas governor screwed up, and that 2) Texas is the only place where abuses take place, you cannot make the logical connection between George Bush and Abu Ghraib, or even between George Bush and the entire US Penal system.

If all you are trying to do is say that the system is screwed up, that's fine: you're entitled to your opinion. But to say that the system is screwed up, and that is what caused Abu Ghraib, AND ITS ALL BUSH'S FAULT is a leap that defies basic logic.

And that, gentelment and ladies, was my only point in this post.

Prove me wrong.

Elliot

Clarification/Follow-up by excon on 05/20/04 10:56 am:

Hello again, everybody:

C’mon you people, reach……. Maybe it’s true what they say about right wingers. If it’s not spelled out for ‘em – they don’t get it.

We have an abusive prison system in every single state in this country plus the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Texas is just the poster boy – the worst of the worst, and just happens to be George’s home. Is it his fault? No. He’s a puissant. This is much bigger than him and been going on longer than he’s been around. It’s all our faults.

And, although you didn’t ask me Elliot, yes, I have a better way. I’ll try not to make it too deep so some of you can keep up. In our country we the word “as” in dictating terms of imprisonment. , read as follows: …….is to

The distinction is the difference between the words “for” and “as” Do we send people to jail in this country “AS” punishment or do we send them to jail “FOR” punishment. I’ve been incarcerated under both systems and, let me tell you, there is a difference – a major difference.

Mexico. It’s so backward in its penal system, that it’s years ahead of us. Concepts like “rehabilitation” (which we once embraced) and “retribution” (which we now embrace) are far beyond the thinking (or the ability) of the Mexican penal system to produce. No, they think jails are for keeping certain people out of society. And, they do that pretty well.

As a matter of fact, that’s all they think they’re job is – to keep people - not to punish people, humiliate them, correct them, rehabilitate them, make them pay, or treat them badly. By the same token, they don’t think it’s their job to feed or clothe them, nor to give them jobs, housing or medical care either. Nope. They keep them. That’s all. And, in my view, that is indeed, all a jailer need do.

This is a perfect example of sending someone to jail “as” punishment. The punishment is being in jail.

Lest you think, Elliot, that this system isn’t punishment enough, please note those items that are not provided – food, housing, clothing or medical care. Let me repeat; they don’t give you diddly. That’s not to say those things aren’t available. They are if you have money, but the facility does not provide them. You’re on your own. There is work available and there is money inside. Any enterprising individual can get by, some better than others. But the jailers could care less

They also don’t try to keep families apart. Thursday’s and Sunday’s are visiting days, and the visitors can stay overnight. If a family has to travel a long distance (typical in Mexico), they just move in for a few weeks. There are children running all over the place (along with chickens). It’s actually like a little Mexican village with walls around it. Now, it isn’t bad – but it isn’t good. Its jail – you can’t leave.

But it seems to work for Mexicans. Other than the drug wars (which we foisted upon them) they don’t have a serious problem with crime. About 90% of the people in there are there for drugs, and most for growing pot.

Then there is our system, where we send to people to jail “for” punishment. We put people in a system where it’s everybody’s job to punish. Not only is a convict in jail as punishment, he is there - to be punished. Now, I don’t suggest that it’s the written policy of our penal system, but I suggest we give our jailers license to behave that way.

Think for a minute exactly how ETWolverine would treat an inmate. He is the kind of person who works and runs our system. What the Padre says is happening in his locale, is happening everywhere.

Now, I don’t suggest that we should be good to convicts for the sake of being good, but that we should not be bad to them just for the sake of being bad. Besides, it runs counter to our own interests. Like a caged animal whose been prodded with a stick, most of our convicts will be released someday. I’d personally, like them to not be so angry.

Nope – Mexico is way ahead of us.

excon

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 05/20/04 12:43 pm:
OH REALLY!!!

Mexico is way ahead of us, is it?

This is an excerpt from the Mexico Consular Information Sheet available from the US Department of State:

http://travel.state.gov/mexico.html


It is current as of May 10, 2004.

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SAFETY AND SECURITY: Travelers should avoid demonstrations and other activities that might be deemed political by the Mexican authorities. The Mexican Constitution prohibits political activities by foreigners, and such actions may result in detention and/or deportation.

Sporadic outbursts of politically motivated violence occur from time to time in certain parts of the country, particularly in the southern states of Chiapas , Guerrero and Oaxaca . The U.S. Embassy recommends that U.S. citizens avoid traveling in areas of the state of Chiapas where disputes are known to be ongoing, in particular the rural areas east of Ocosingo and the southeastern jungle region East of Comitan. In these areas, there have been disturbing incidents involving violence and threats of violence against foreigners and establishments catering to foreign tourists. Armed rebels and armed civilian groups are present in some areas of the state, and there is often no effective law enforcement or police protection. Some segments of the local population resent the presence of foreigners and openly express their hostility. For further information, please see the U.S. State Department's Report on Human Rights Practices at http://www.state.gov. U.S. citizens traveling to Chiapas are encouraged to contact the U.S. Embassy for further security information prior to traveling to the region.

Standards of security, safety and supervision may not reach those expected in the United States . This has contributed to deaths of U.S. citizens in automobile accidents, after falls from balconies, after falls into open ditches, by drowning in the ocean as well as in hotel pools, and in water-sports mishaps, among others.

CRIME: Crime in Mexico continues at high levels, and it is often violent, especially in Mexico City , Tijuana , Ciudad Juarez and Nuevo Laredo . Other metropolitan areas have lower, but still serious, levels of crime. Low apprehension and conviction rates of criminals contribute to the high crime rate. Travelers should leave valuables and irreplaceable items in a safe place, or not bring them. All visitors are encouraged to make use of hotel safes when available, avoid wearing obviously expensive jewelry or designer clothing, and carry only the cash or credit cards that will be needed on each outing. Travelers are discouraged from bringing very large amounts of cash into Mexico , because officials may suspect money laundering or other criminal activity. All U.S. citizen victims of crime in Mexico are encouraged to report the incident to the nearest police headquarters and to the nearest U.S. consular office.

There are a significant number of pick-pocketing incidents, purse snatchings and hotel-room thefts. Public transportation is a particularly popular place for pickpockets. Valuables should be left in a safe place, or not brought at all. Please keep track of your luggage when getting in and out of ground transportation from the airport to the hotel, and vice versa.

Visitors should not leave belongings on the beach while swimming, as there is a possibility of their being stolen.

Visitors should be aware of their surroundings at all times, even when in areas generally considered to be safe. Armed street crime is a serious problem in all of the major cities. Some bars and nightclubs, especially in resort cities such as Cancun , Cabo San Lucas, Mazatlan , and Acapulco , can be havens for drug dealers and petty criminals. Some establishments may contaminate or drug the drinks to gain control over the patron. Victims, who are almost always unaccompanied, have been raped, robbed of personal property, or abducted and then held while their credit cards were used at various businesses and Automatic Teller Machines (ATMs).

U.S. citizens should be very cautious in general when using ATMs in Mexico . If an ATM must be used, it should be accessed only during the business day at large protected facilities (preferably inside commercial establishments, rather than at glass-enclosed, highly visible ATMs on streets where criminals can observe financial transactions). Recently, there have been cases in which U.S. and Mexican citizens have been accosted on the street and forced to withdraw money from their accounts using their ATM cards.

Kidnapping, including the kidnapping of non-Mexicans, continues at alarming rates. So-called "express" kidnappings, an attempt to get quick cash in exchange for the release of an individual, have occurred in almost all the large cities in Mexico and appear to target not only the wealthy, but also middle class persons. U.S. businesses with offices in Mexico or concerned U.S. citizens may contact the U.S. Embassy or any U.S. consulate to discuss precautions that they should take. Four Americans were kidnapped in separate incidents in Nuevo Laredo during the Spring and Summer of 2002.

For safety reasons, the U.S. Embassy advises all U.S. citizens to exercise extreme caution at all times when traveling on Mexican highways. Criminal assaults occur on highways throughout Mexico . Therefore, travelers should exercise caution when traveling on all highways in Mexico , use "toll" ("cuota") roads, rather than the less secure "free" ("libre") highways, whenever possible, and avoid driving at night. During 2003, several travelers on the cuota between Guadalajara and Mexico City were robbed of all their belongings late at night at gunpoint after being pulled over by what appeared to be a police car with flashing lights. In addition, U.S. citizens should not hitchhike or accept rides from, or offer rides to, strangers anywhere in Mexico .

All bus travel should be during daylight hours and on first-class conveyances. Although there have been several reports of bus hijackings and robberies on "toll" roads, buses on "toll" roads have a markedly lower rate of incidents than buses (second and third class) that travel the less secure "free" highways. While many of the assaults have occurred in daylight, the U.S. Embassy nevertheless encourages daytime travel to lower the chance of vehicle accidents. The Embassy also advises caution when traveling by bus going east or west from Acapulco toward Ixtapa or Oaxaca . Although the police have made some progress in bringing this problem under control, armed robberies of entire busloads of passengers armed robberies of entire busloads of passengers still occur.

In some instances, Americans have become victims of harassment, mistreatment and extortion by Mexican law enforcement and other officials. Mexican authorities are concerned about these incidents and have cooperated in investigating such cases. However, one must have the officer's name, badge number, and patrol car number to pursue a complaint. Please note this information if you are ever involved with police or other officials. In addition, tourists should be wary of persons representing themselves as police officers or other officials. Request evidence that any such people are in fact who they claim to be.

Tourists should not hike alone in backcountry areas, nor walk alone on lightly frequented beaches, ruins or trails. Local authorities have reported an increase in armed robberies in the popular tourist destination of northern Sinaloa, especially near the fishing resorts. Caution should be exercised when visiting this area.

The loss or theft abroad of a U.S. passport should be reported immediately to the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate. U.S. citizens may refer to the Department of State's pamphlet, A Safe Trip Abroad, for ways to promote a trouble-free journey. The pamphlet is available by mail from the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington , D.C. 20402 , via the Internet at http://www.gpoaccess.gov, or via the Bureau of Consular Affairs home page at http://travel.state.gov.

CRIME IN MEXICO CITY : In Mexico City , the most frequently reported crimes involving tourists are taxi robbery (see below), armed robbery, pick-pocketing and purse-snatching. In several cases, tourists have reported that men in uniforms perpetrated the crime, stopping vehicles and seeking money, or assaulting and robbing tourists walking late at night. As in any large city, individuals should exercise caution and be aware of their surroundings, especially when walking anywhere in the city.

Business travelers should be aware that thefts can occur even in what appear to be secure locations. The Embassy has recently noted an increase of thefts at Mexico City 's Benito Juarez International Airport and at Mexico City 's International Trade Center and at business-class hotels.

Metro (subway) robberies are becoming more frequent in Mexico City . If riding the Metro or in the city bus system, U.S. citizens should take extreme care with valuables and belongings. Avoid using Metro during busy commuting hours in the morning or afternoon. Tourists and residents alike should avoid driving alone at night anywhere in Mexico City .

Robbery and assaults on passengers in taxis are frequent and violent in Mexico City , with passengers subjected to beatings, shootings and sexual assault. U.S. citizens visiting Mexico City should avoid taking any taxi not summoned by telephone or contacted in advance at the airport. When in need of a taxi, please telephone a radio taxi or "sitio" (regulated taxi stand – pronounced "C-T-O"), and ask the dispatcher for the driver's name and the cab's license plate number. Please ask the hotel concierge or other responsible individual calling on your behalf to write down the license plate number of the cab that you entered. Passengers arriving at Mexico City 's Benito Juarez International Airport should take only airport taxis (which are white with a yellow stripe and a black airplane symbol) after pre-paying the fare at one of the special booths inside the airport.

PRIVATE VESSELS: Persons bringing private vessels into Mexican waters should be aware of an increase in reported thefts of gear at Mexican marinas. Any mariner who is victimized by this type of crime should immediately file a report with local authorities. Mariners preparing to depart from a Mexican harbor should visit the harbormaster and leave a detailed trip plan, including intended destination and crew and passenger information.

CRIME IN BORDER CITIES: Visitors to border cities such as Tijuana , Ciudad Juarez, Nuevo Laredo, and Nogales should remain alert and be aware of their surroundings at all times. Visitors are very vulnerable when visiting the local "red light districts," particularly if they are departing alone in the early hours of the morning. Municipal and traffic police are aware of the danger and regularly check the area for persons carrying weapons or drugs and for drunk drivers. Nonetheless, Americans can still fall victim to crime in these districts. In Ciudad Juarez, there has also been a rise in automobile accidents in which municipal police extort money from U.S. citizen victims.

Innocent bystanders are at risk from the increase in drug-related violence in the streets of border cities. In Ciudad Juarez, Nuevo Laredo and Tijuana , shootings have taken place at busy intersections during daylight hours. In Ciudad Juarez, several U.S. citizens, including innocent bystanders, have been killed in drug-related shootings over the past three years. Some of these shootings have taken place on principal thoroughfares and outside popular restaurants and other public places, including convenience stores, a currency exchange, a gas station, and recently outside shopping malls and in middle and upper class neighborhoods.

U.S. citizens visiting relatives who reside in Nuevo Laredo and who walk or drive in deserted areas or particularly dark streets have also been the victims of random violence.

In other instances in border cities, U.S. citizens have been kidnapped and scores imprisoned after getting involved in the sale or purchase of illegal drugs. U.S. citizens are advised to avoid any involvement with controlled substances or those who deal in them.

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Great friggin' prison system they have there in Mexico, excon. It really seems to be doing wonders for them.

Kidnapping, murder, armed robbery, rape, theft, pick pocketing... and you better hope to G-d you don't end up near a political uprising. And all of that takes place in the relatively "good" areas like Mexico City.

Elliot

Clarification/Follow-up by XCHOUX on 05/20/04 2:20 pm:
Elliot: I WAS TRYING to be funny in my answer to excon. You just misinterpreted my attempt at humor for a serious answer.

I never said or thought that you were trying to be funny.

Take care!