Clarification/Follow-up by SABURAMO on 08/26/06 11:55 pm:
Give it up H,
Preaching is not your cup of tea.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 08/27/06 12:27 am:
Saburamo apparently does not like the Bible. Odd for someone who wants to be on the Christiianity board.
Clarification/Follow-up by CeeBee2 on 08/27/06 12:46 am:
Toms777 - you missed Luther's point. It's not one of those literal interpretation things.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 08/27/06 1:30 am:
There is no circumstance under which we should encourage sinning PERIOD. Sin is rebellion against God.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 08/27/06 1:33 am:
arcura, no one said that we don't need both. But the law as written is to show us how we failed to live up to God's standard and is to point us to Christ, the only means by which we are justified. We must live according to tghe law, but if we try to live by the letter (i.e, guide), we will fail. Scripture says that. When we are saved, we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who, in accordance with teh written law, goes above and beyond what is written and guides us into the intent of the law and help us to live according to the spirit of the law not just the letter of the law.
Clarification/Follow-up by EdwardTeach on 08/27/06 1:39 am:
You MUST differentiate between the Law of the Gospel of Christ and the Law of Moses! They ARE NOT one and the same thing.
The moral Law is not done away with, only the Levitical Code.
Jesus requires Christians to observe civility and the moral law.
End of story.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 08/27/06 1:40 am:
Ronnie, I don't what it was that you were commenting on, but your comemnts do not appear to have much if anything to do with what I said.
Though it might be interesting for a contrast to look at the Mormon position on sin and the law. Mormons view the fall in the garden (i.e. rebellion against god)contrary to Christian teachings in that they say that the sin of Adam and Eve was a good thing, saying that men "fell up".
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 08/27/06 1:43 am:
Matt 5:17-19
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
NKJV
Many do not understand that there is more than one purpose to the OT law. There is much which is prophetic of the coming of Christ and rather than understanding it, they simply see it as rituals which were done away with when Christ came, something that Christ himself denies.
Clarification/Follow-up by CeeBee2 on 08/27/06 2:00 am:
Fred and Tom - Look beyond the literal meaning!!!!!!!!!
Clarification/Follow-up by peddler7118 on 08/27/06 2:17 am:
. Tom
I must disagree with your comment:
"Saburamo apparently does not like the Bible. Odd for someone who wants to be on the Christianity board. "
I should be odd but my experience is that Bible believing Christians are a tiny minority here.
Most of the people here scoff at the Bible and pick and choose what is right and what is not.
They know when Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said and when He did not.
As in society most people have disconnected the Bible with reality.
I do not understand the point in worshiping from a book that each person decides what is fact and what is fiction.
Why not be creative and write your own book?
Not you personally-I realize you are a Bible believing Christian. Probably why you are so popular here. :}
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 08/27/06 2:58 am:
CB, there is no way the pointing people towards sinning is appropriate. If you think that it is, then please explain, otherwise simply saying that we are wrong goes nowhere.
peddler, I agree that Christians are a tiny minority, which would be fine if indeed those who are non-Christians were interested in learning about Christianity. many seem to be on here to attack Christianity.
Clarification/Follow-up by CeeBee2 on 08/27/06 3:01 am:
Tom - Luther was not pointing people to sin. He, in a private letter that later became public, was making the point that, no matter how sinful the person, God's grace is sufficient. Luther was using hyperbole to make his point. The person he was writing to totally understood this.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 08/27/06 3:06 am:
CB, I would still disagree. A better explanation would be:
1 John 1:8-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV
Note the difference here is a focus on submitting to God rather than sinning boldly.
Clarification/Follow-up by CeeBee2 on 08/27/06 3:25 am:
Tom - It was a private letter and hyperbole. Luther makes his point even today. Sorry you don't get it.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 08/27/06 3:36 am:
I egt it, CB, I believe that what he said was wrong.
Clarification/Follow-up by isizathu on 08/27/06 9:56 am:
Hank,
I almost would call for all to "SIN", so that they can "REPENT" and later be "FORGIVEN" !!!
I almost would ....
:)
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 08/27/06 11:46 am:
isizthu - that is Mormon teaching - seriously! They teach that when Adam and Eve sinned it was good so that they could experience the joy or redemption.
Clarification/Follow-up by peddler7118 on 08/27/06 12:47 pm:
If the Holy spirit dwells within you it does not make you a perfect person.
However there will be an outward sign of inward change. The things you thought were cool no longer are. dirty movies , violent movies, bars, clubs etc. no longer have the same allure.
Your joy comes from helping people who never know it was you who that helped them but knowing that God does.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Clarification/Follow-up by TTRalph on 08/27/06 1:47 pm:
Toms777:
Don't like the taste of the sauce???? Funny, it was the same sauce you used on your goose!!!! You have proclaimed, loud and often, that you do not hate, but that you have a mandate from your god to point up the 'silly' beliefs of those who do not, nor will not, bow the knee to YOUR perverted idea of a saviour...Catholics, Mormons, Jews, Atheists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, ALL Christians who are NOT fundamentalist Bible Thumpers....and when someone else points up your own 'silly' beliefs you immediately start whining about 'personal attacks'. It's bad enough that you have corrupted your own children with your doctrines of hate, but trying to do it on THIS board is not going to be quite so easy. There are a few GOOD people left on this board who can see through your intolerance, your elitism, and your outright bigotry...and they will fight you, on this, as long as possible. Better get used to it. "Civility" that does not include tolerance is, simply, "Sanctimony"........ Get It????
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 08/27/06 4:26 pm:
TT, when you attack a person personally that is a ....?
Thanks for the excellent example of a personal attack. I have no doubt that you are an intelligent person, but to be honest, attacks like this really obscure the abilities that may have to provide quality answers. Why not contribute to the quality of the board rather than bring yourself down to name-calling and insults. These reflect more on you than they do on the other person in any case.
After all these years I'd have thought that maybe you would change and I continue to hope that we will some day see that change.
I guess that we will be seeing more of you over here now that your home Q&A board has apparently shut down.
Clarification/Follow-up by EdwardTeach on 08/27/06 6:05 pm:
No one has said that sin was a good thing, or that A&E 'fell up.' They are your words, not mine.
You are right, you do not know what I was commenting on, so why try to address that which you do not understand?
My comments had to do with Hank's post on the place of the Law and that of the Gospel. Try to read my comments in that light and your feeble excuse for taking a pot shot from behind the wall of your cult disappears.
Your understanding of what LDS teach is deeply flawed, being more related to the oppostunistic casuistry of your cult leaders such as Chick, Martin, Walters, Ankerberg, Tanners, etc., etc., etc.
I addressed Hank's question, so why would anyone imagine for one moment that I was spotlighting someone or something else?
"personal attacks ...... " Phooey!
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 08/27/06 6:54 pm:
Ed, perhaps you said more than you intended. I was responding to TTRalph but you tell me that it was YOU who made the comments. Interesting revelation, Ronnie!As for the Mormon view of sin, let's read 2 Nephi 2:22-23 from the Book of Mormon:
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
As Mormon aopologist Jeff Lindsay puts it:
"The ultimate implication of the Fall is the possibility of having joy."
(Source: http://www.jefflindsay.com/adam.shtml)
