Question Details	Asked By	Asked On
Accusations of Brutality Exaggerated	XCHOUX	05/04/04
So, the Iraqi prisoners were stacked up naked like cordwood with hoods on their heads and photographed? Big deal. Our soldiers are being killed over their. What better way to get intelligence from the other prisoners than to show them a picture of a plie of anonymous naked guys especially with a woman making fun of them? They weren't hurt. It's a war!
Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 05/06/04 9:12 am: I thnk that that murder did have SOME effect. But I think a bigger issue for him was the low turnout rate among non-settlers at the voing booths. The truth is that the Gaza plan has majority support within the rank and file of Likud. But only settlers who's settlements would be shut down turned out to vote. Sharon lost this vote because he didn't 'get out the vote'. On the other hand, the vote is not binding, and Sharon is planning a national (all party) referendum on the Plan shortly. He'll win that one hands down because it has 70% support of the country, and THIS TIME he'll be sure to scrounge every vote he can. I have certain problems with the plan. As a lifelong Religious Zionist and follower of Meir Kahane, I have issues with giving up ANY land. But I also understand the pragmatic needs of Israel also. The truth is that we cannot defend the Gaza settlements in a 2 state solution. And this plan also guarantees the future of the major West Bank settlements, and takes them off the table of future discussions. It also strengthens Israel's borders, and creates stiff penalties for breaching those borders. I am saddened that Israel needs to give up any land, but frankly this plan is better than anything I've seen till now. And I trust Sharon enough to pull it off... or to kick the ass of any Muslim that tries to stop him. And it finalizes things... "this far and no further" will become Sharon's mantra. Elliot
Answered By		Answered On
ETWolverine		05/05/04
Chou, the political ramifications of what these guards did are very far reaching. Ralph Peters wrote an article on it in the May 1 NY Post. It was a good article too. And I think it only touches on PART of the full ramifications. Here's the article: AN AMERICAN DISASTER; PRISONER ABUSE IN IRAQ By RALPH PETERS May 1, 2004 -- THE United States just experienced its first true disaster in Iraq. As news of the disgraceful mistreatment of prisoners by American soldiers sweeps the world, our enemies celebrate a major propaganda gift. Even our friends cannot defend the indefensible. On the battlefield, we must be fierce. But once an enemy becomes a prisoner of our military, he must be treated justly and humanely. Strictness, yes. Abuse, no. The rogue American soldiers and renegade contractors involved committed two sets of crimes. The first - the physical maltreatment and humiliation of prisoners - was against the Uniformed Code of Military Justice and the Geneva convention. If convicted, the accused soldiers need to see the inside of a military prison themselves. As for the contractors involved, our country either must find a way to prosecute them - or stop employing contractors in conflict zones. Evident attempts to sweep this part of the scandal under the rug are intolerable. The other set of crimes, while harder to prosecute, will have a vastly more powerful effect than the direct abuse of individuals. Our laws and codes haven't begun to catch up to the pace of technology, but those who tormented the Coalition's prisoners have done immeasurable damage to our country and our efforts to advance the cause of freedom - in Iraq and around the world. A time-tested military saying runs, "One aw-s#8@ cancels a hundred attaboys." This particular debacle canceled thousands of hard-won successes, great and small. Thanks to the power of the globalized media and the internet, those images of prisoner abuse will be immortalized, their effects inflated far beyond the truth - which was bad enough. Anyone in the Arab world who sought "evidence" that Americans are nothing more than imperialist bullies just got it. Those Europeans for whom anti-Americanism is a cult, if not an outright religion, are already having a grand time. Quibbling that no prisoners were killed or maimed won't help. For those who wish to believe ill of America, the abuse photographs can be conflated with Europe's own far-greater crimes. No one died in those brutal antics in the Abu Gharaib prison. But the global left will treat these events as if they were the Holocaust and the Gulag combined. It's just possible that no soldiers in U.S. history have done more damage to our country's cause than the Gang of Six from the 800th Military Police Brigade. But it's not just about the soldiers directly involved. These crimes demonstrate an utter failure of the chain of command. All the way to the top. Why did it happen? Yes, there are always bad apples in any organization. But that excuse is unacceptable. The truth is that this was a systemic failure - one that could have, and should have, been prevented. We never had enough troops in Iraq. Nor do we have enough in the Army and Marines, overall. When Baghdad didn't turn out to be Orlando, after all, those brilliant civilian thinkers in the Office of the Secretary of Defense continued to try to do things on the cheap militarily. The reservists guarding those prisoners weren't trained for the job. They were thrust hastily into duties that require specific skills, great personal and unit discipline and supervised experience. Then contractors - so beloved of OSD in every sphere - were allowed to run wild in the prison, answering to no one. Had properly trained, active-duty MPs been running that prison, it's unlikely that such events could have taken place. But we don't have enough active-duty MPs. Or Infantrymen. Or even truck-drivers in uniform. The mantra from this administration's apparatchiks has been, "Out-source it." Well, they just out-sourced America's honor. There are no words adequate to describe the damage done by these crimes against Iraqi prisoners. Killing all the terrorists we can in combat is one thing - and a good thing, at that - but after the shooting stops, we must always behave humanely. It's not just about laws and conventions, but about the basic decency that makes us Americans. Overwhelmingly, we get it right. But you can't get it wrong even once. An out-of-control gang in uniform just made a mockery of those Americans who have died to bring a better future to Iraq. They shamed every soldier serving today. And every one of us who served in the past. If you still need one more example of how irresponsible OSD's approach to the occupation of Iraq has been, consider where the prisoner abuses took place: The Abu Gharaib prison was the old regime's most notorious atrocity workshop. We shouldn't even have used it as a latrine. But our general unpreparedness for the occupation - and mindless expedience - had us take it over almost before the blood of Saddam's victims dried on the walls. Now our enemies can point to American crimes in the same notorious halls. Yes, our deeds were isolated and less than lethal. Frankly, it doesn't matter. In the battle for the soul of the 21st century, perception trumps facts. The thugs of Abu Gharaib - the American thugs - just dealt the greatest blow to America's prestige since the fall of Saigon. In the Middle East, this story will morph into myth and outlast our lifetimes. It will haunt our every effort. And yes, it will recruit terrorists. At least some of the accused enlisted soldiers are likely to spend time behind bars. Their leaders should, too. And not just those in uniform. Ralph Peters is a retired Army officer and a regular Post contributor. And there you have it. Elliot

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