Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/25/06 9:24 pm:
Fred,
That comments was not even honest and you know it. Look at how you dealt with me in the current discussion on the board. I also note that you say that you reach a conclusion regardless of what I said - exactly as I would expect because of your past history and exactly as I stated - what I said makes no difference and that is exactly why I did not answer.
If I had said yes, you would have probably gone on the attack saying that it confirmed your suspicions.
If i said no, you would probably have said that I was lying.
You had already reached your conclusion ahead of time.
I tried and tried to come to a point where we could have good and honest interaction, but your continually made dishonest and false assumptions about me and continued abuse and mke false accusations about me no matter what I said, and I expected no less from this rather loaded question.
Thus your response confirmed that I made the right decision not to answer. You had already decised what the answer was and my answer would only decide what form your abuse would take.
Fred, if indeed you are a believer in Christ, please consider how this impacts your witness.
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/25/06 10:14 pm:
Toms,
I always try my best to be honest with you.
You don't like the way I treat you sometimes, I know.
But I don't like the way you treat me sometimes, so we are even on that.
One that last post regarding the video, I was very much surprised at your comment, what had it to do with Christianity.
Toms, from my point of view everything as something to do with Christianity.
God made this whole world and deals with it in His way.
Jesus came to save the whole world if they would follow Him as he asked.
Thus the whole world is related in some way to Jesus, God The son.
Can you follow me on what I am saying?
Please try.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/25/06 10:24 pm:
Fred,
If that is you "trying" to be honest, then I feel very sorry for you.
In that discussion, when I disagreed with your position, your response was to belitle and attack me personally. You need to understand that it is possible to disagree and still deal with the person honestly and respectfully.
Please try to listen to what I am saying and please try to stay on topic.
If you are opr ever get serious about respectful interaction, all you need to do is so by your actions and that door will be open.
Tom
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/26/06 6:01 am:
Perhaps you've never noticed, but your attitude toward others invites attack.
Perhaps you should stop looking down your nose at others.
You present the appearance of someone who thinks he knows more and better than anyone else. Why you do that I don't know.
This is a very personal board so don't be surprised that I and others will get personal.
Some of us even tell each other that we love each other.
And stop whining about being attacked. You do your share of attacking people and it come back at you.
I'm being honest with you Tom.
God Bless,
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/26/06 7:21 am:
Fred,
You have your opinion, but even if you believe that to be true, you cannot control me, but you can control your attitutde and your approach to others, which has been noted by others to be abusive.
As for the few who attack me, scripture says that would happened if we remained true to God's word. hOPE said that her attacks were because I disagreed with her religion, and likewise your attacks are because we disagree. In fact, the vast majority of those who attack me do so because of a disagreement.
You seem to think that being atacked is okay. The Bible says something else. If your religion says that attacking is okay, it is not Christian - scripture says love your enemies and do good to those who revile you. If you feel that I am your enemy, you have no licence from scripture to abuse me.
You accuse me of attacking people. Show me where and I will apologize. I have said it over and over. You and a handful of others in the same crowd make these accusations but are never able to validate the claims, but prefer to make unsubstantiated accusations.
Fred, the door will always be open to you. I hold nothing against you, and am more than willing to welcome you as a friend anytime.
The ball is your court, as it has been for years.
Tom
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/26/06 1:14 pm:
Toms,
I've been paying ball for years, but I prefer to play with those who score the game honestly and do not belittle or condemn the members of other teams as you do.
You think that your denomination and its dogma is the only true one.
Others think the same about theirs.
Christianity in under attack in the USA, it make no sense to be attacking other denominations. To do that is playing into the hands of the atheists and secularists.
Once you get of your judgement soap box and start trying to get along without your denomination criticism you'll find people here a lot less hostile to you and peddler.
We are at war with the atheists and secularists, quit playing into their hands.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/26/06 5:35 pm:
Fred,
There you go with those accusations again (no evidence, as always).
1) Before you accuse, check out Luke 6 again. You abuse, and then self-righteously say that you are praying for me. Sorry, Fred, but your actions speak louder than words. If you cared for me one iota, you would not be so abusive.
2) You claim that I have a "denomination". I don't think ANY denomination is the right one because all are creations of men. Again check out Luke 6 because it is you who claim outright that the Catholic church is the only true church. I never said that about any church, nor do I believe it to be true of any church oragnization.
I have said this many times, but once again you mis-represent me.
3) First we have to understand what Christianity is. You demand that we accept what your denomination says. You tell me that churches which contradict scripture on the essentials are okay. You tell me cults are okay. Scripture is quite clear and I'll stick with God's word. It says that there is no salvation in a different gospel.
Scripture says that we at war will all false doctrines.
Tom
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/26/06 6:45 pm:
Toms don't try to play that game with me.
I won't fall for it
No evidence is necessary.
You know well what you do, you are not lame brained.
You have attacked three or more denominations here as has peddler.
The three are the JW, LDS, and the RCC.
Don’t even think of trying to deny that.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/26/06 7:23 pm:
I play no games - I play it straight as an arrow with you.
If you make an accusation, especially that I know is an outright fabirication, evidence is necessary. But you will resist until the end because you know as well as I do, unless you deluded yourself, that your accusations are no more than hot air. If you disagree, prove me wrong.
Catholic nancy made the same accusation on Askme.com, and I made the same offer top her. A public apology to anyone that I can be shown to have personally attacked. After less than a wek of searching, with hel;p from others, she had the integrity to apologize to me for a false accusation.
I wonder if you have that same level of integrity?
First, 2 of those three are accepted throughout Christian and circular circles as cults. Only one is accepted as a denomination.
I do not attack the organization or denomination but rather their actions and doctrines, as scripture commands us to do.
Perhaps you missed it, but even if I did attack the organization, that is much different than personal attacks such as you engage in.
So again, where are these claimed personal attacks? You will avgoid evidence like the plague because there is none.
And do you know what the Bible says about those who bear falose witness?
Now, Fred, I am tiring of you wasting my time. Unless you are prepared to start treating me respectfully, or you have evidence to bring forward, I would ask you to stop this harassment.
Tom
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/26/06 8:28 pm:
Sorry Tom,
I'm through playing games with you.
You know very well what you have posted here about the three denominations I mentioned.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/26/06 9:39 pm:
I am glad to hear that you have decided to stop playing games. That would be a very positive development.
Yes, I know what I posted about the 2 cults and one denomination, and there were no personal attacks as YOU know perfectly well.
If you claim otherwise, then you are deliberately lying.
Tom
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/27/06 9:17 am:
It is your game I do not play, Tom.
I'm happy that you admit about what your have been posting about the denomination I mentioned.
When you do attack a person’s denomination you attack their faith and belief.
That is very personal so do not claim that your posts are not personal attacks.
I do not agree with much of what the JW and LDS organizations teach, but when you attack the members thereof on any board I will defend their right to believe as they wish.
By the way, I have been in contact with Judgment_Day. He believes that you and peddler conspired to have him suspended. He knows how, why, and when. He has also been in contact with the AW board and others about that to demonstrate how you two practice your unforgiving, intolerant version Christianity.
I mention that because I thought you would like to know how you have impressed others.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/27/06 11:46 am:
I don't play games, Fred and that fact alone appears to annoy you. The fact that I am straightforard, honest and respectful appears to be the issue because in so doing, my honesty and adherence to scripture does not allow me to compromise principles.
YOu claim that I attack "members thereof" - where? You make claims which have no basis, nor can you nor have you ever provided a single example. And you cannot because they do not exist.
Conspiracy? Please, don't let your paranoia get the best of you. If he "knows hows, why and when", I would be interested since I know none of these. If he has evidence, then indeed, he should go to the AW board and let them check it our. That is better than making false accusations publicly. Perhaps you should take a hint from that.
BTW, I have said it before, I am not here to impress you or Judgment Day - the only approval that I seek is God's.
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/27/06 11:53 am:
You ARE still playing your TWIST IT game.
I was clear when I said that if you attack a person’s denomination you attack their belief and faith and that IS very personal.
You claim to be honest yet in your own words prove that you are not.
If you think that twisting the words of others to say something they are not is seeking the approval of God, it shows how twisted your own belief in God must be.
You accuse me of paranoia that's another example of your TWIST IT game.
I DID NOT say that I was the one who thought it was a conspiracy. Yet YOU twisted what someone else said to make it appear that I said it.
You claim to be honest.
That is the laugh of the day.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/27/06 12:17 pm:
If attacking a person's cult, religion or denominational beliefs is "personal", then what you are saying is that one cannot disagree, in which case you have smeared jesus, Paul, Jeremiah, Ezekile, Peter, etec., as abusers.
You make additional accusations and still not a single piece of evidence. And we know why, don't we. Your accusations are baseless. If there was something to it, you would have brought it forward, or would have taken it to AW. But you will not because you cannot.
You were the one coming forward with a "conspiracy theory", not me. Don't make accusations when it was you who raised it. It may not have been your idea, but clearly you were endorsing it.
If all you can do is make accusations and personally abusive comemnts, then please do it soemwhere else - or take JD's approach and take your baseless accusations to AW and see if they care.
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/27/06 12:25 pm:
Toms,
As I said before, no evidence is necessary.
You know what you have been posting.
Why should I bother to gather what you have said just so you could see it again.
In regard to the conspiracy theory:
I was nice enough to inform you about it and now you claim I was making the accusation.
See how you are?
Apparently you can't help it. It looks like twisting is the way you think.
I hope I am wrong, but that is the way you appear to be.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/27/06 12:48 pm:
Fred,
the truth is no evidence is possible - it is necessary however.
I do what I have been posting and I have said nothing inapproptriate, nor have you shown otherwise. You apparently claim some exemption from the need for evidence that the rest of the world must adhere to.
That is the stuff of kangaroo courts - convict without evidence fo any wrongdoing. I can honestly say that I hope that no one ever tries doing the same thing to you.
No, Fred, you were not being nice - you were being demeaning. You gave your reason before and I quote "I mention that because I thought you would like to know how you have impressed others.".
Remember, the measure by which you judge is the meane by which you will be judged. That is something that, if I were you, I would not take lightly.
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/27/06 1:37 pm:
It is YOU who THINKS that you "have said nothing inapproptriate." (sic)
Just because you think so does not make what you have said appropriate.
I don't judge. I observe.
You use scripture to judge others.
Those who judge will be judged.
Those who do not forgive will not be forgiven.
Those two biblical teachings alone among many disprove the rapture theory.
I'll see you on Judgement Day.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/27/06 1:46 pm:
Fred,
You are right. I know what I said, as you poionted out, and nothing in what I said was inappropriate.
You claim otherwise and have been completely unable to validate such a claim.
I see only judgment in your comemnts - you have tried anc onvicted me without evidence. The measure by which you judge is the measure by which you judge. You should read those verse aagin about judgment and forgiveness. (BTW, I haven't the faintest idea how you come to the conclusion that one part of the Bible proves another part wrong, but that is for a different discussion).
If you EVER find any evidence, let me know, but I am not holding my breath. In the meantime, please feel free to go to AW like JD is and make your accusations without evidence and see if they buy it.
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/27/06 2:01 pm:
Just because you THINK that "nothing in what I said was inappropriate." does not make it so.
I have exposed you on AW and the boards several times.
There is no longer any need to do so because you do that to yourself.
I'll be leaving the board this afternoon.
I'll be thinking about the rest of what you said as I go my way.
This will be my last post here.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/27/06 2:18 pm:
You expose nothing but yourself if you make accusations without any basis.
Please consider what I said. please also remember that despite how you try to paint me, and despite the fact that we disagree with each other, I do care and the door will never close. I mean that very sincerely.
Tom
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/27/06 6:13 pm:
Hey Fred,
Fred, you said "I mention that because I thought you would like to know how you have impressed others.".
Have a gander at the responses to your message about leaving on the board to see how you have inmpressed others.
Read Luke 6 once again:
Luke 6:41-42
41 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? 42 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye.
NKJV
Fred, when you are ready to acknwoledge your imperfections, I'll be here ready to welcome you.
Tom
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/29/06 7:35 pm:
I acknowledge my imperfections to God who only knows for sure what they are, thank you.
That most definitely excludes you.
You are not my confessor and the last person here that can think of that I could consider too be a good one.
You have far to many obvious imperfections that You need to deal with long before you need to worry about mine.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/29/06 8:21 pm:
You have made it abundantly clear that you do not believe that the same standards that you hold others belong to you. That come through screaming on loudspeakers in your behaviour.
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/29/06 8:27 pm:
Now THAT post of yours sounds like you are talking about yourself.
If so, it is a pleasure to heard that you are waking up.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/29/06 8:32 pm:
Still twisting my words, eh Fred.
Why don't you just stop the attacks, and be willing to disagree respectfully? I have told you that the door is open and will remain open. I am willing to forgive and forget all past abuse.
You talk a lot about God, but where is the fruit of the spirit, Fred?
Eph 5:9
or the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth
NKJV
You have not been honest with me, and have made numerous false accusations. Is that consitent with your professions of faith?
Why not just drop it. IOf you are unwilling to deal respectfully with me, why nmot stop the harassment. If you are willing to deal respectfully, then why not start now and let's move forward on a different path.
The choice is yours.
Tom
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/29/06 8:48 pm:
That is a good question to ask YOU.
When are YOU going to stop your attacks on people and their belief or faith?
I would appreciate it if you stopped attacking me and my denomination.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/29/06 8:54 pm:
That is kind of like that old joke "When are you going to stop beating your wofe?".
Since I have not attacked anyone and to date you have consistently refused outright to show a shred of evidence to the contrary, the onus is on your part to cease and desist the attacks, not me. If you have any evidence of wrong doing, bring it forward. I told you time and time again that if I have personally attacked anyone, I will publicly apologize. But to date you have been unable to find any evidence nor am I aware of any such event.
False accusations mean nothing, nor do they bring credit to your prpfession of faith.
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 10/29/06 8:57 pm:
Tom
Denying it does not change a fact.
Live with it.
Clarification/Follow-up by Toms777 on 10/29/06 9:02 pm:
Nor does an accusation make it a fact.
If you will not bring forward any evidence, then this is gong nowhere. Could we please end it here and move forward?
