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These are answers that powderpuff has provided in Christianity
| Question/Answer | | belle33 asked on 07/01/08 - concerning Aton Why do you all rejoice so in Aton 's disbarrment. The only reason is because you feared his "belittlement" of you as you saw it. YOu gave him the power to make you feel that way. Your reactions to his words were not what a Christian'should have been. If you have faith inyour Faith, why get so upset over what he "said." JJ Dupree's silly childish spamming ws far more offenisve that words. If you all have faith in what u beieve no words can touch you. When he said"your violent desert god" , allyou had to say was "thats what e believe." No cheek turning for you all. powderpuff answered on 07/03/08:Hello Belle,
I don't recall a collective rejoicing when Aton was suspended. I don't think there are many experts here that are happy with the arbitrary and capricious way suspensions are awarded here.
With the way he insulted management, I hardly think he was surprised to get the boot!
powderpuff (who has had her share of suspensions :)~ lost count actually!) | | Question/Answer | | bal317 asked on 07/03/08 - Men today? Are men today, any different than those from the Bible?
Are men today, willing to lead their families toward God, more so than in Biblical Times?
Are men today, destroying their Biblical stance that God wanted them to be?
If so, why or why not. And what is it going to take to regenerate the strength God wanted men to portray?
powderpuff answered on 07/03/08:Hello Bal,
I'm not sure but my guess is men are more involved with their familes/children today more often than yesteryear.
I'm sure some men are not following a leadership role in their families today, but I think the ones who are, are more involved than men from the biblical era. Men's roles in the family as well as society have changed through the years and now most women work through their child rearing years.
Men have been forced to treat women on more equal terms than in the past and in the process they have become more involved with their children.
This does not take into account the high number of women who chose to have children outside of marriage.
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | bal317 asked on 05/27/08 - Cross? There seems to be a conflict among Christian's about the Cross. Some say,"why do you have a Cross with Jesus on it, when He is not on the Cross anymore?"
I love Cross necklaces, so which is the correct style?
Jesus on the Cross?
Or, Jesus off the Cross?
I prefer Jesus on the Cross, because I want to remember and show He was there. But according to some, I may be wrong in wearing such.
What do you think please? powderpuff answered on 05/28/08:Hello Bal17,
There is no correct style of cross to wear! There is no biblical directive on wearing crosses of any kind as jewelry, that I can think of.
If Jesus had been hanged on a rope, would you wear a pendant/figurine of Jesus hanging by the neck, or an empty noose?
I think the choice should rightly be made by the person wearing the necklace.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | STONY asked on 05/26/08 - can it really be possible? it is no secret, i am 59, my lady is 29, i popped the big question today and she said "yes." now, when the dust settles we'll see where we are at. i shall keep you posted. but for the moment, "i am ecstatic!!" join me in my joy...tony powderpuff answered on 05/27/08:HELLO STONY,
THAT'S GREAT NEWS! I HOPE THE TWO OF YOU HAVE MANY HAPPY YEARS AHEAD TO SHARE WITH EACHOTHER :)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | STONY asked on 05/26/08 - A QUESTION ON FLA. LAWS... I POSTED THIS IN JAN BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN ANSWERED.
OVER 15 YEARS AGO I GOT AN "ADJUICATION WITHELD" ON DRUG CHARGES. DOES THAT EVER GO AWAY AS IN TIME PASSED OR WILL IT LURK IN MY BACKGROUND FOREVER. IS THERE A STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS OR NOT?
EXCON MAYBE YOU HAVE AN ANSWER FOR ME.........THNX, TONY powderpuff answered on 05/26/08:HELLO STONY,
I DID A LITTLE LOOKING ONLINE AND FOUND THIS FOR YOU:
FLORIDA CRIMINAL RECORD DISPOSITION EXPLANATIONS
ADJUDICATION WITHHELD - COURT DECISION AT ANY POINT AFTER FILING OF CRIMINAL COMPLAINT, TO CONTINUE COURT JURISDICTION BUT STOP SHORT OF PRONOUNCING JUDGMENT. THIS IS TO AVOID THE UNDESIRABLE EFFECTS OF CORRECTION.
__________________________________
I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHAT THIS MEANS FOR YOU, BUT I THINK IT MEANS YOU ARE SAFE NOW :)
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 03/07/08 - The so-called "Wandering Doxology" The Wandering Doxology in Romans 16:25-27 is widely regarded as a post-Pauline addition.
What evidence is there for or against this view?
powderpuff answered on 03/08/08:Hello PrinceHassim,
I found some evidence for this view here:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/goodspeed/ch06.html
I also found contradicting opinions among scholars as to the meaning of any evidence one way or the other.
But, I tend to agree with:
"This doxology is assigned variously to the end of Romans 14; 15; 16 in the manuscript tradition. Some manuscripts omit it entirely. Whether written by Paul or not, it forms an admirable conclusion to the letter at this point." -USCCB
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | arcura asked on 03/07/08 - Do you have ANY respect for churches? Such as the:
Anglican Churches
Assemblies of God
Baptist Churches
Catholic Churches
Episcopal
Jehovah Witnesses
Lutheran Churches
Presbyterian
Mormon
There are about 38,000
Most others can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
Because of Jesus I respect them all.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
powderpuff answered on 03/07/08:Hello arcura,
Yes, of course. I also respect the church's members. Why do you ask?
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 03/04/08 - What do you think of this? ................ Obama: Sermon on Mount Justifies Same-Sex Unions
By Terence P. Jeffrey
CNSNews.com Editor in Chief
March 03, 2008
Sen. Barack Obama told a crowd at Hocking College in Nelsonville, Ohio, Sunday that he believes the Sermon on the Mount justifies his support for legal recognition of same-sex unions. He also told the crowd that his position in favor of legalized abortion does not make him "less Christian."
"I don't think [a same-sex union] should be called marriage, but I think that it is a legal right that they should have that is recognized by the state," said Obama. "If people find that controversial then I would just refer them to the Sermon on the Mount, which I think is, in my mind, for my faith, more central than an obscure passage in Romans." St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans condemns homosexual acts as unnatural and sinful.
Obama's mention of the Sermon on the Mount in justifying legal recognition of same-sex unions may have been a reference to the Golden Rule: "Do to others what you would have them do to you." Or it may have been a reference to another famous line: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
The Sermon, recorded in the Gospel of Matthew, includes the Lord's Prayer, the Beatitudes, an endorsement of scriptural moral commandments ("anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven"), and condemnations of murder, divorce and adultery.
On the topic of abortion, Obama said his support for keeping it legal does not trespass on his Christian faith.
powderpuff answered on 03/04/08:Hello PrinceHassim,
I think its very pretty there at Hocking College in Nelsonville.
I braved a terrible winter storm to cast my vote today.
Other than that, I think I'm glad our country is not run on religious laws, though its nice to have people running for President who are familiar with the Sermon on the Mount.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Tempus-Omnia-Revelat asked on 03/02/08 - Christianity versus/with Atheism More and more articles on the Internet refer to "Christian Atheism", "Atheistic Christianity", "Positive Christian Atheism", "Atheism in Christianity", etc.
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I did read many of them, but to me all seem a near endless stream of unclear statements clouding what is actually meant, and how to implement that in any practical way.
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Is there anyone here who can tell me what is meant with these connected concepts of Christianity and Atheism?
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As Christianity and Atheism seem to be opposing ideologies, can they be interconnected into a valid concept?
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Look up these headers I mentioned in Google : they are really posted on the Internet, but I can't draw any logical conclusion out of any!
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John
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powderpuff answered on 03/02/08:Hello Tempus-Omnia-Revelat,
My understanding from what I have read is that some Atheists blend their reality (there is no God) with the positive aspects of Christian teachings to come up with a title for themseleves as "Positive Christian Atheist".
Though many Christians won't accept that, I personally think it is a positive position for Atheists. A Positive Christian Atheist would want to avoid sin and treat others well because doing so creates a better life for themselves as well as others, not because of a fear of judgement and punishment or reward after death.
Positive Christian Atheists stive to live by the same values taught by Christianity, without subscribing to the supernatural stuff.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Tempus-Omnia-Revelat asked on 02/27/08 - Discrimination of Atheists by US Christians .
An extract from a message by editor@positiveatheism.org, who wrote :
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"The United States is viciously religious, and huge organized groups work ceaselessly toward legislating not only their narrow view of Christian morality upon us all, but also to legislate Christian ritual upon everybody. Though not the majority, these groups are very large and hold much sway.
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Extreme Christian pressure is used to post the Protestant version of the Ten Commandments in public schools and public buildings.
However, we shouldn't have to lift a finger toward preventing these intrusions, because our Constitution forbids the entanglement of government in religious affairs, and prevents the government from endorsing any religion.
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Thousands of millions of public dollars are funneled into religious charities, who then openly evangelize those they help. Then they turn around and boast about all the good things that religion does for the people -- with our common tax money!
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They also work to bring unfair political and economic advantage to religious individuals and groups, even to the point of rendering legal for a religious person what remains illegal for a nonreligious person."
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---
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What is your opinion : is there - besides common discrimination like gender, race, and historical origin - also a clear Anti-Atheist discrimination in the USA ?
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John
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powderpuff answered on 02/27/08:Hello Tempus-Omnia-Revelat,
Atheists in the USA get no special treatment in the discrimination department. They fit in there nicely with all the other groups who get discriminated against.
I imagine that if you are an Atheist, you experience some discrimination, clearly, as do others in different groups that are discriminated against.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | arcura asked on 02/24/08 - Has anyone wondered why I've been gone? If so the answer is that my computer crashed, and it is still down.
I am using a friend's computer today.
I don't know when my machine will be fixed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
powderpuff answered on 02/25/08:Hello arcura,
I sure did wonder where you were. I was hoping it wasn't a health problem. Glad to know its the ol'computer and not the ol'ticker! Hope you get it fixed soon.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Mary_Susan asked on 02/23/08 - Referrals to Christian Website I participate on an Adult Sexuality Board, and today, a person stopped by and asked if we knew any awesome porn sites. I answered, discern.ca!
What are your feelings about porn? A little is ok? It's harmless? It damages a person?
(You're welcome, Tom) :D powderpuff answered on 02/24/08:Hello Mary Susan,
:D You little devil you! Both involve creative writing and pictures... porn is porn, right? Skin porn, religious porn... easy to confuse the two LOL!
Personally, I think porn can be dangerous, there is no doubt that some people's porn viewing has gotten them in trouble. However, I do appreciate the artistic value of erotica.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Tempus-Omnia-Revelat asked on 02/23/08 - Lack of belief and misuse of belief-based claims I noticed that certain people are hiding behind boardrules from answering important questions and add-on's here.
To me it seems that anyone with a Christianity-related question may post their question on the Q&A board.
And anyone who wants to reply to that question or posted comments can do so within that topic.
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Of course general discussions should be posted in the Christianity Forum.
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Specially those with very outspoken views on the Bible seem to hide behind the boardrules to shy away from answering difficult questions and remarks on the Bible and Christianity.
When the validity of the Bible is the topic, why would any true Christian shy away from answering and/or make follow-up comments within that topic?
That must certainly be fully within the boardrules, is it not?
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Also : why can certain Christians not simply admit that what they see as the "one and only truth" is actually based on their belief in Christianity and all that forms part of that religion?
There is no 100% objective evidence for what is stated in the Bible. Neither is there any original Bible manuscript left.
Of course you may believe whatever you like, but why that apparent need to post so many wild claims as the "one and only truth"?
If you really think your views are the "truth", why don't you support your claims? Because if you can't provide objective supporting evidence for them, all you have are empty claims.
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Must I conclude that (some) Christians feel that their own faith and belief are insufficient as support for their religious views?
That their Christian belief and faith is so shallow that they have to refer to wild claims without any back-up, just to suppress their own fears?
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I note that if these wild claims are questioned by others, these same people feel attacked and deeply lament their position on this board.
Is your Christian belief and faith also so shallow that you feel the need to post belief-based claims as "one and only truth"?
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John
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powderpuff answered on 02/23/08:Hello Tempus-Omnia-Revelat,
Could you be a little more specific about your statement "hiding behind boardrules from answering important questions"? I'm am not sure what you are suggesting. Once I understand better what you are trying to say, I will try to answer your question.
Until then, I'll answer as best I can.
Yes, I think it is within the board rules to post Christianity related questions and for others to answer those questions on the board.
"why would any true Christian shy away from answering"? I am not ready to agree that anyone is shying away from answering questions. When someone answers a question, they do so out of their own free will, there is no rule compelling participants to answer every question. I would say there are many reasons people answer questions or pass them up, including who posted the question to begin with.
I personally believe most Christians admit their beliefs are based on faith. What you don't seem to understand is that is REAL to them, they experience their faith as real, therefore their beliefs are real. Real Facts, they experience their faith no other way. Why does that seem to be such a problem for some non believers? Believers KNOW their belief is based on Faith, and they accept that. Can you?
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | sissypants asked on 02/22/08 - what do you think motivates fireman do you think it a christian thing to become a fireman or not? i had the embarrassing need to be rescued today and why do they always look sooo ...mmm handsome? i am such a ditz i got locked out on my roof today. i was out working in the yard cutting down my bamboo and i looked up and remembered i had the box garden up on the roof so i went up to my room and out the window almost as large as a door but i was in a bad mood for reasons i don't want to go into so i just closed the window behind me a bit too quickly realizing that "oh @#&* i bet that window locked" and sure enough, there i was in quite the predicament. i did have my trusty little phone with me. at first i was going to try and climb down but it is a three story house so i had to call the fireman to come and get me down....there i sat as i watched as they came over the hill, one by one ...all six of these gorgeous hunks of firefighters to my embarrassing rescue. then after they left i thought...DARN, i should have asked them to wait so i could get my new camera out and get some photo shots in with them :)....guess i'll have to lock myself up there again :) powderpuff answered on 02/23/08:Hello sissypants,
Hmmm, its probably not a Christian "thing". But I bet at least some of those firemen are Christians :)
You know, I have to say it.... Taking a step too far, going past the point of no return, never seeing the danger until the door slams shut behind you... well, you need to pay more attention to what you are doing and what is going on around you. This has become a life long theme for you. You silly goose!
Go out and buy a rope ladder today! Next time it could be a fire that has you out on the roof and since the fire truck cannot make it onto your street, a ladder is even more important. Ok? So, go do it now if you haven't already.
powderpuff
ps, and never ever forget, ever again, you do have a camera on your phone! | | Question/Answer | | Ch.Pétrus.82 asked on 02/22/08 - Cults Is this person to be taken seriously?
http://discern.ca
Note dodgy, wirling cross & last update!! powderpuff answered on 02/22/08:Hello Ch.Pétrus.82,
Anyone who takes themselves that seriously is most sincerely serious! I don't necessarily share his seriously enthusiastical take... instead, I prefer to -oh, never mind and thanks anyway on the link.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | MaggieB asked on 02/20/08 - If belief in God works for believers, why knock it? Those of us who believe in God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, have no problem with our beliefs as we have experienced what God can do. We have a close "relationship" like no other and the life altaring examples we have seen happen through no will of our own except to trust the Word of God are beyond any explanation we can give to those who don't believe.
Some of us have powerful stories to relate as to how we lived, how we dealt with problems, the horrible things we selfishly did not thinking of others. We caused pain and embarrassmnet to our parents, spouses, children and our loyal friends UNTIL God stepped in and we let Him have control of our lives.
There is substancial proof in the daily lives of those who have truly accepted God and Jesus Christ as His Son by liveing according to His Word as is revealed in how they now live. Something "miraculous" happened to them and it was not of their own doing.
Some may laugh and make jokes of us and call us wackos or whatever but it doesn't change the fact that we are now different and all is well. We thank God for His Love, Mercy and Grace.
Lastly, Christians are not perfect, they still make mistakes but we are children of the Heven;y Father.
We still have problems BUT we have a mediator, Jesus Christ, who walks with us. We walk in FAITH.
Love to all,
MaggieB/Margaret powderpuff answered on 02/21/08:Hello Maggie,
I don't know why some non believers, at times, feel the need to make an issue about the faith of Christians. I think they do it for entertainment.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Ch.Pétrus.82 asked on 02/19/08 - There is more evidence for the Bible than any other ancient text. .
"There is more evidence for the Bible than any other anicent text." as stated by Toms777.
This is a fascinating statement which needs further debate.
Can someone start with one piece of sustainable evidence?
Pete powderpuff answered on 02/20/08:Hello Ch.Pétrus.82,
This is interesting. I'm sure that Toms777 will share some of his sustainable evidence soon! I, unfortunately, have no evidence for Bible claims. However, I am open to and interested in any evidence that exists.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | Ch.Pétrus.82 asked on 02/16/08 - Why are there so many Bible translations?
Bible translations.
If the Bible is the word of God and the the word of God is inherent.....Why are there so many Bible translations and which one should I read?
Pete
powderpuff answered on 02/17/08:Hello Ch.Petrus.82,
"IF" only....
The problem is that All the translations come from people who have translated the Hebrew and Greek according to their interpretation of the original texts.
We can't even get everyone to agree on the interpretation of any one translation!
My advice, give up the idea that the Bible is the inherent word of God and read which ever one you prefer.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Tempus-Omnia-Revelat asked on 02/16/08 - The last 20 questions took 9 days ....................... .
While some 15 people seem to be participating on this Christianity board, it took 9 days+ to produce 20 questions.
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What is causing this abnormal low activity?
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Why are you all so very, very quiet?
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What is (not) going on here?
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Am I missing something?
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John
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powderpuff answered on 02/16/08:Hello Tempus-Omnia-Revelat,
5 days ago Answerway reminded the experts with a post to the board saying: "Post discussions in forums. The QA Board is only for questions and answers .. if you wish to have a discussion or share something with the rest of us, please post it in the forum where it belongs." A couple other posts that did not belong on the board were removed at that time.
I would suggest that if you have anything to say that is not a real question, put it where it belongs and maybe the experts will take up conversation in the forums where they belong. Vijay is trying hard to make improvements on this site and I think the least the experts can do is work with him, rather than against him. I am pretty sure he cares more about the quality of posts than the quantity of posts to the board.
powderpuff
of course, I could have it all wrong...
| | Question/Answer | | Ch.Pétrus.82 asked on 02/13/08 - Transplants I have , at last, signed up to be a body organ doner. I would be interested to know of your thoughts on this subject with relation to your religious beliefs.
Pete powderpuff answered on 02/13/08:Hello Pete,
I have always felt that organ donation was A-OK with God, since He can do anything. We humans are here and we have to work within the bounds and limits of our abilities. *Always pushing that limit, of course :)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | TTFNUAS asked on 02/12/08 - Questions that puzzle me............. How can evil exist in the world if God is simultaneously good, omnipotent, and loving? Why is it that no theodicy stands up under rational scrutiny?
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and in relation to this point....
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Why does the church say God did not create evil, when he himself claims that he did in Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, and Amos 3:6?
powderpuff answered on 02/12/08:Hello TTFNUAS,
I'm sure you've heard at least one of these explanations before:
Evil is the other side of the coin. Its all part of the same thing....
Evil is a necessary test???
Without evil, how could we recognize goodness?
If everything was good, what pleasure would there be with joy?
I honestly don't know the answer to your question.
Btw, which church contradicts God own account for evil?
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | arcura asked on 02/11/08 - Do you forgive others? How? In what Way?
(Mt 6:7-15): But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.
Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors;
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
God forgives as you forgive.
If you forgive with conditions or reservations, that is how God will forgive you.
So how do you forgive those who sin against you?
I forgive anyone who sins against me with thought, word or deed whether I know about it or not.
powderpuff answered on 02/12/08:Hello arcura,
I forgive by first recognizing what went wrong. Then I apply that to myself. By realizing that I am no better than the other, I work through the process of forgiveness. I put myself into the shoes of the one I am to forgive. If I cannot relate, I believe there are some things I don't know. Taking a deeper look into the situation helps me reduce any resntment or feelings of revenge I might have. Some people say you should forgive, but don't forget... If you don't "forget", the HERE AND NOW will remain hidden in the shadows of the past. So, when I forgive someone, I make a change within myself instead of holding out for a change in the one I am forgiving.
People make mistakes all the time. Choices are made, people get hurt. When mistakes and or wrong doings are made against me, I forgive the person it came from and work on changing myself in a way that I hope will prevent a repeat in the future.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Tempus-Omnia-Revelat asked on 02/09/08 - Quiting of Mitt Romney Mitt Romney is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where he served as part-time lay minister, was called a bishop, and has also been a stake president (presiding over several congregations).
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Romney abstains from alcohol and smoking, is a proponent of monogamous, heterosexual marriage, is an experienced businessman and former Governor of Massachusetts, is young, good looking, and speaks well.
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Romney addressed religion in general, saying that as president he would have needed “the prayers
of the people of all faiths” and that he would have served “no one religion, no one group, no one cause,
and no one interest, as a president must serve only the common cause of the people of the United States.”
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Still the Republican voting results were a disaster for him as presidential candidate.
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I do not want to go into the possible POLITICAL aspects here on why Romney quited.
But could it be that being a Latter-day Saint was the real cause for him not being able to really get through?
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If so, what is it in Christian US of A that makes everything religious so embittered and nittpicking that - even "if you are a suitable man for the job" - you can forget it if you have a different religion than the majority voters?
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Isn't the capacity to lead a Nation not more important than to what church one belongs?
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How do US Christians see that?
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John
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powderpuff answered on 02/09/08:Hello Tempus-Omnia-Revelat,
Imo, being Mormon is/was his biggest sinker. I can't say it is the only thing that stood in his way of becoming President. It is undeniable that religion is important in politics, but it is not the most important thing or else all Mormons would vote for Romney, all Baptists would vote for Huckabee, and so on.
I'm not sure what it is in the Christian USA, but I suspect it is what we teach our children....
I wasn't planning on voting for Romney, though I had not ruled him out either. I had full confidence in his abilities to run our country and get our economy back on track and maybe fix some other financial problems we face here (Social Security, Welfare... but, I was not clear on his plans for the war on terror. Some of his talk about that, well, I still have a lot of thinking to do about that problem.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | server asked on 02/08/08 - For info only: Answers in Genesis' Programming Coming to the NRB Network
MEDIA ADVISORY, Feb. 7 -- The NRB Network announced a new lineup for the Tuesday 9:00 p.m. (ET) hour. "Answers Creation Hour" will feature programs developed by Answers in Genesis (AiG). The programs will be part of the NRB Network's Tuesday night Nature/Science Night. AiG programs teach that "facts" don't speak for themselves, but must be interpreted. That is, evolution and creation don't have separate sets of "evidences." We all deal with the same evidence (we all live on the same earth, have the same fossils, observe the same animals, etc.). The difference lies in how we interpret what we study.
The "Answers Creation Hour" will kick off Tuesday night, February 19th as part of the NRB Network's new spring lineup.
powderpuff answered on 02/08/08:Hello server,
"Facts don't speak for themselves, but must be interpreted"
Scary thought.
I prefer situations where I make my own interpretation of the facts while those around me interpret the situtation according to their own points of view.
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | Tempus-Omnia-Revelat asked on 02/07/08 - 30 days in the hole ??? JJD stated : *But a "Kinder gentler outlaw" has emerged. :);)*
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If that is really true, JJD :
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Amen to that! The Christianity board can use that change! But as always the proof is in the pudding!
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Next to that just ask Vijay to unblock those who you have blocked in the past!
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Any comments?
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John
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:)
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powderpuff answered on 02/07/08:Hello Tempus-Omnia-Revelat,
No doubt, the proof IS in the pudding :)
Welcome back!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | JesseJamesDupree asked on 02/07/08 - 30 days in the hole!!!!!!!!........... But a "Kinder gentler outlaw" has emerged. :);) powderpuff answered on 02/07/08:Welcome back JesseJamesDupree,
30 days in the hole
That's what they give you
30 days in the hole
I know
30 days in the hole
That's what they give you now
30 days in the hole
Oh, yeah
Kinder and gentler, huh? ok.
Glad you made it back.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Ch.Pétrus.82 asked on 02/06/08 - 30 days in the wilderness Hello to you all after my months rest. I hope for some civilized Q & A.
Kind regards
Pete powderpuff answered on 02/06/08:Hello Pete,
Welcome back. You'll be surprised, this place is totally civilized now ;)
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | TTFNUAS asked on 02/06/08 - Adding another greeting from ........ Hello all ........
Email restored to working order .... as Johnny said........
I'm baaaaack!
;-)
powderpuff answered on 02/06/08:Welcome back TTFNUAS! Don't let that email slip again :)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | arcura asked on 02/06/08 - Peace and kindness to all. I have returned. I am delighted to see that several are still keeping this board alive.
It is a pleasure to return to interchange with you all here again.
May God bless you all abundantly,
Fred powderpuff answered on 02/06/08:Hello arcura,
Welcome back! Hope you enjoy your time here :)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | server asked on 02/04/08 - Do you believe this? "Bible Prophecy reveals next and last Pope will be a devil impersonating John Paul II"
http://www.worldslastchance.com/next_and_last_pope.php powderpuff answered on 02/04/08:Hello server,
No, I don't believe it.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | server asked on 02/04/08 - Earth produces endless supply of oil Discovery backs theory oil not 'fossil fuel'
February 1, 2008
By J.R.Corsi
A study published in Science Magazine today presents new evidence supporting the abiotic theory for the origin of oil, which asserts oil is a natural product the Earth generates constantly rather than a "fossil fuel" derived from decaying ancient forests and dead dinosaurs.
The lead scientist on the study – Giora Proskurowski of the School of Oceanography at the University of Washington in Seattle – says the hydrogen-rich fluids venting at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean in the Lost City Hydrothermal Field were produced by the abiotic synthesis of hydrocarbons in the mantle of the earth.
The abiotic theory of the origin of oil directly challenges the conventional scientific theory that hydrocarbons are organic in nature, created by the deterioration of biological material deposited millions of years ago in sedimentary rock and converted to hydrocarbons under intense heat and pressure.
While organic theorists have posited that the material required to produce hydrocarbons in sedimentary rock came from dinosaurs and ancient forests, more recent argument have suggested living organisms as small as plankton may have been the origin.
The abiotic theory argues, in contrast, that hydrocarbons are naturally produced on a continual basis throughout the solar system, including within the mantle of the earth. The advocates believe the oil seeps up through bedrock cracks to deposit in sedimentary rock. Traditional petro-geologists, they say, have confused the rock as the originator rather than the depository of the hydrocarbons.
powderpuff answered on 02/04/08:Hello server,
I guess the important thing is what the origin of oil means for the average person.
Whether oil is being constantly and naturally produced within the mantle of the earth, or it is an organic bi product from the deterioration of biological material deposited in sedimentary rock, millions of years ago, doesn't change the effects of human use of oil, does it?
Of course, it would be helpful to know all there is to know about what oil is and where it comes from. But if you ask me, I think the most important thing to find out is whether or not there is a way to use oil without polluting or damaging our planet and its delicate atmosphere.
If we have an endless supply or a limited amount, we still need to find a way to use it in a more eco friendly way. Or better yet, just a clean alternative.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | MaggieB asked on 01/26/08 - What next?? Disabled spy satellite threatens Earth
Disabled spy satellite threatens Earth By EILEEN SULLIVAN, Associated Press Writer
Sat Jan 26, 6:31 PM ET
WASHINGTON - A large U.S. spy satellite has lost power and could hit the Earth in late February or March, government officials said Saturday.
The satellite, which no longer can be controlled, could contain hazardous materials, and it is unknown where on the planet it might come down, they said. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the information is classified as secret.
"Appropriate government agencies are monitoring the situation," said Gordon Johndroe, a spokesman for the National Security Council, when asked about the situation after it was disclosed by other officials. "Numerous satellites over the years have come out of orbit and fallen harmlessly. We are looking at potential options to mitigate any possible damage this satellite may cause."
He would not comment on whether it is possible for the satellite to be perhaps shot down by a missile. He said it would be inappropriate to discuss any specifics at this time.
A senior government official said that lawmakers and other nations are being kept apprised of the situation.
Such an uncontrolled re-entry could risk exposure of U.S. secrets, said John Pike, a defense and intelligence expert. Spy satellites typically are disposed of through a controlled re-entry into the ocean so that no one else can access the spacecraft, he said.
Pike also said it's not likely the threat from the satellite could be eliminated by shooting it down with a missile, because that would create debris that would then re-enter the atmosphere and burn up or hit the ground.
Pike, director of the defense research group GlobalSecurity.org, estimated that the spacecraft weighs about 20,000 pounds and is the size of a small bus. He said the satellite would create 10 times less debris than the Columbia space shuttle crash in 2003.
As for possible hazardous material in the spacecraft, Pike said it might contain beryllium, a light metal with a high melting point that is used in the defense and aerospace industries. Breathing beryllium can lead to chronic, incurable respiratory problems.
Jeffrey Richelson, a senior fellow with the National Security Archive, said the spacecraft likely is a photo reconnaissance satellite. Such eyes in the sky are used to gather visual information from space about adversarial governments and terror groups, including construction at suspected nuclear sites or militant training camps. The satellites also can be used to survey damage from hurricanes, fires and other natural disasters.
The largest uncontrolled re-entry by a NASA spacecraft was Skylab, the 78-ton abandoned space station that fell from orbit in 1979. Its debris dropped harmlessly into the Indian Ocean and across a remote section of western Australia.
In 2000, NASA engineers successfully directed a safe de-orbit of the 17-ton Compton Gamma Ray Observatory, using rockets aboard the satellite to bring it down in a remote part of the Pacific Ocean.
In 2002, officials believe debris from a 7,000-pound science satellite smacked into the Earth's atmosphere and rained down over the Persian Gulf, a few thousand miles from where they first predicted it would plummet.
___
powderpuff answered on 02/02/08:Hello MaggieB,
I just hope no one gets hurt!
Maybe its time to start thinking about these possibilities before they happen!!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | ROLCAM asked on 01/27/08 - TO SERVE. Have you announced the good news to those in darkness ? powderpuff answered on 02/02/08:Hello Rolcam,
Yes, whenever I get the chance I share the good news.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | CeeBee2 asked on 02/01/08 - A country's leader - how important is it that a leader have a strong faith in God and be willing to publicly turn to God during times of personal and national stress and emergency? powderpuff answered on 02/02/08:Hello CeeBee2,
I don't think it is a good idea to depend on a country's leader's strong or weak faith in God. His willingness to publicly turn to God in times of personal or national emergency is a scary thought to me, (since no one group or single person seems to get the exact same message from God).... Having a leader willing to publicly turn to God for answers might also be willing to impose his/her version of God's answer for all.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | CeeBee2 asked on 02/01/08 - What should be a Christian's attitude and behavior toward a coworker of another religion or toward someone who has no religion?
I spend my day with coworkers, volunteers, and community service people who are probably not Christian. They might be Hindus, Muslims, atheists, non-practicing Christians, and scores of other belief systems. Rarely does an opportunity arise in which I can find out what anyone believes. If I do, it is more a point of interest rather than an opportunity to discuss religion. In fact, discussing religion (or politics or the stock market, for instance--possibly controversial topics) are frowned upon by the administration.
So what is a Christian to do in the workplace, if anything, regarding preaching the Gospel? powderpuff answered on 02/02/08:Hello CeeBee2,
Christians have an opportunity to demonstrate their beliefs through their actions while they are at work. Any actual discussions about personal religious beliefs would be out of place at work, unless you work at a religious institution, imo.
As a Christian employee, I think the most important thing to do while at work is your best effort to get the job done.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | paraclete asked on 01/23/08 - Time for the UFOnics to go back to sleep? Last week there was great hoo-ha, so much so we could expect the Martians to land in Texas, but no, there is to be no extraterrestrial coming, just business as usual there is now better odds on the Dow rising than the Martians landing. What I have to say about all this is; where is your Faith?
UFOs? Nope. They were fighter jets, Air Force saysStory Highligh
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Ten Air Force Reserve F-16 fighter jets were the cause of the lights seen over parts of central Texas earlier this month that many believed to be UFOs, according to an Air Force Reserve news release.
Ricky Sorrells said he saw a flat, metallic object hovering about 300 feet over a pasture behind his Texas home.
The F-16s were on a nighttime training mission over the Brownwood Military Operating Area on January 8, near Stephenville, Texas, the statement said.
A military operating area is airspace designated for military training, according to Air Force officials.
Several people in the area saw lights moving fast across the night sky. The Air Force reported it had no aircraft flying that night, which left people wondering what they saw.
Wednesday, an Air Force Reserve statement from the Naval Air Station Fort Worth Joint Reserve Base said it made a mistake in its initial reporting, and that there were planes in the area that night.
"In the interest of public awareness, Air Force Reserve Command Public Affairs realized an error was made regarding the reported training activity of military aircraft," the news release said
A spokesman for the Air Force Reserve fighter wing, Karl Lewis, said the error in the reporting resulted from an internal communications problem between offices at the base.
Lewis said he received the flight information earlier this week, confirmed it with officials on the base and sent the news release out Wednesday.
The release said the planes were in the area between 6 p.m. and 8 p.m., about the time many people reported seeing the lights, according to reporting at the time.
Lewis said the planes were from the 457th Fighter Squadron based at the reserve base outside of Fort Worth, Texas.
powderpuff answered on 01/23/08:Hello paraclete,
I live near a city that has an Air Reserve Training Base and I can tell you first hand those fighter jets can do some strange and unusual things! They do lots of practice maneuvers in the skies above near where I live. They can zoom up upon you almost silently, very fast, and even more amazingly, they can roar away faster than the speed of sound. Sometimes the only clue you have is an odd pinging sound, and then before you know it the jets have come and gone. It seems to me like they can throw their sound too. They are interesting to watch.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | IQGuru asked on 01/21/08 - The Olivet discourse Three versions of what Jesus said on 'the course of this age' are found in the Bible:
Matthew 24:6-7: And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kindowm: and there shall be famines and pestilences, and eaqrthquakes in divers places.
Mark 13:7,8: And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kindom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
Luke 21:9-11: But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Then said he unto them, Nations shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And great earthqukes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
DISCUSSION: I suppose the end of war may appear to be a very noble 'Christian goal'. But there is a diference between a noble goal (or a Christian goal) and what is attainable. Christ himself, as quoted in the passages above, indisputedly told us that there will NEVER be an end to war, prior to his own second coming. In other words, such a goal is, by the words of Christ himself, simply unobtainable... It ain't gonna happen!
In consideration of the above, what is the justification for any Christian to hang a 'Stop This War Now' sign upon his or her body and to then go protest a (the)(any) war? What is it about 'It ain't gonna happen' that they do not understand? Why do these people believe that the cessation of war is even possible? How can they both insist that they are Christians and insist that such a goal is attainable,
whereas Christ himself said it is NOT obtainable?
I think what you have at such war protests are NOT Christians, I think they are self-delusional
something-elsers. powderpuff answered on 01/21/08:Hello IQGuru,
Maybe they are the peaceniks. They are probably the same people who set their goals on such lofty ideas as striving for perfection and doing such illogical things as loving their enemies. Some people never give up :)
Seriously, there are some people at the extreme end of the spectrum on any number of issues. Those self-delusional something-elsers have lost sight of how their negative actions fail to produce a positive effect.
I don't hang signs like that on me and I don't attend war protests... though I am horrified by war. I do believe sometimes war is necessary, but I don't think it is something that should be blindly accepted either.
Call them whatever you like :)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | STONY asked on 01/02/08 - SORRY I HAVE BEEN AWAY... COMPUTWER AT HOME DOES NOT FUNCTION ANYMORE. HAVE TO USE LIBRARY FOR INTERNET NOW. WILL BE BACK SPORADICALLY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
powderpuff answered on 01/05/08:HELLO STONY,
*~*~*~*~HAPPY NEW YEAR 2008!~*~*~*~*
HOPE YOU GET YOUR HOME PC UP AND RUNNING ASAP.
POWDERPUFF | | Question/Answer | | MaggieB asked on 01/04/08 - Well, how did the Iowa Caucus go for you? With Huccabee and Obama winning there, how do you think they will do in New Hampshite?
MaggieB powderpuff answered on 01/05/08:Hello MaggieB,
Well that sure was a big surprise! I have no clue how they will do in New Hampshire, but I'm ready for some big changes in the White House :)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | bal317 asked on 01/03/08 - Will be gone for a bit. Sorry, just returned and I'll need to be off for awhile. Today my step-son age 26 passed away. He went unconcious day after Christmas due to an drug over-dose. He was in Florida, so we've had to make provisions to return him to Iowa. He will have to have an autopsy first.
Please keep us in your Prayer's.
Thank you,
bal317 powderpuff answered on 01/05/08:Hello bal,
I'm so sorry to hear of your son's passing. It is always a terrible shock for the loved ones left behind when a young person experiences sudden death. My deepest sympathies are with you as you grieve. May your memories bring you comfort. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help at this time.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | arcura asked on 12/30/07 - I want to take this time to......................... Wish all here a very happy and prosperous New Year and that 2008 will be all you hope it will be for you.
Long life and prospers with peace and kindness,
Fred powderpuff answered on 12/31/07:Happy New Year to you too arcura!!! Wishing you health and happiness for 2008!
(peace and kindness too ;)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Mary_Susan asked on 12/31/07 - Christianity in the Iowa Caucus' Thursday Jan 3, 2008 we have the first Presidential preference election in Iowa----Christianity plays an important part in this election. We have Mike Huckabee, a Baptist minister running as a Christian....we have other Republican candidates discussing Christianity.
What do you think the outcome will be....which Republican will get the highest total? Which Democrat do you think will get the nod? How do you feel about Christianity playing such an important part in this election?
Comments..... powderpuff answered on 12/31/07:Hello Mary Susan,
Happy New Year!
Good to see you are still here :)
I have no clue who will be running in the end...
Likewise, I have not decided, out of the bunch, who I'll be voting for. I am sure that I don't like religion playing such an important part in this election! I don't believe our country should be run by religion. Religion is just another "special interest", in my opinion.
Hope you and Nick have a Happy and Healthy New Year!!!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 12/23/07 - The nature of Australian Holocaust denial This is the html version of the file http://sicsa.huji.ac.il/acta25.pdf.
G o o g l e automatically generates html versions of documents as we crawl the web.
To link to or bookmark this page, use the following url: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:45qHV4GjYukJ:sicsa.huji.ac.il/acta25.pdf+aboriginal+christian+australia+denial&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
ABSTRACT
This paper explores the nature of Holocaust denial in Australia. It does so
through a study of the beliefs and activities of the three organizations for whom
Holocaust denial is a central belief: the Australian League of Rights, the
Australian Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), and the Adelaide Institute.
Their activities, their international ties, and their relationship with the broader
racist Right in Australia is considered. The paper concludes by reflecting on the
future directions and responses to Holocaust denial.
I
NTRODUCTION
The nature of Australian Holocaust denial organizations, their activities,
and their place in broader far Right circles is different from denial
organizations in other countries. This is explained by the dominant role
of the Australian League of Rights in far Right politics, the civil liberties
origins of the Australian Civil Liberties Union, the lack of sizeable neo-
Nazi groups in Australia, and the dominance of anti-Aboriginal and anti-
Asian issues on the far Right agenda. In addition, unlike many European
countries where denial is explained as a response to their wartime
collaboration with the Nazis, this motive does not exist in Australia
which fought against the Nazis and her allies.
Although Holocaust denial is a fringe activity in Australia, it has
significantly increased over the last two decades with a concomitant
growth in collaboration between Australian and overseas Holocaust
deniers. This is not just a Jewish concern for Holocaust deniers have
become a leading element within the racist Right with whom they share a
common worldview. This is because in addition to their antisemitism,
Australian Holocaust deniers expound racist and xenophobic policies
and views.
All three Australian denial organizations variously engage in a
range of methods to negate the uniqueness of the Holocaust and dispute
its number of Jewish victims, such as relativism and minimalization.
However, they are defined as deniers because they deny there was
systematic plan to exterminate European Jewry and they believe the
Holocaust is a Zionist “myth” devised for political purposes.
Focusing on the Australian League of Rights, the Australian Civil
Liberties Union, and the Adelaide Institute, for whom Holocaust denial
is a core part of their raison d’être, this paper draws extensively on
primary material from these groups and media reports about them to
• Describe the three organizations and their leaders
• Consider their antisemitic conspiracies
Page 2
Danny Ben-Moshe
2
• Discuss their operating methods
• Explore their ideological and practical ties to the broader far
Right agenda
• Examine their international links, and
• Conclude by assessing responses to them.
E
RIC
B
UTLER AND THE
A
USTRALIAN
L
EAGUE OF
R
IGHTS
Until the 1980s there was only one racist group for whom Holocaust
denial was a central belief, the Australian League of Rights (hereafter the
League). They challenged the “Holocaust hoax” long before it gained
momentum in Europe and North America during the 1970s and, unlike
the Australian Civil Liberties Union and Adelaide Institute, rather than
copying the ideas and activities of overseas deniers the League developed
their own.
Described by the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity
Commission’s 1991 National Inquiry into Racist Violence as “the most
influential and effective, as well as the best organized and most
substantially financed, racist organization in Australia,” it was from this
position that the League championed Holocaust denial in Australia in the
second half of the 20th century.
1
According to historian Hilary
Rubenstein, “by the 1950s Holocaust denial was a frequent component
of League of Rights propaganda,” a process overseen by Eric Dudley
Butler who established the organization in 1946 and led it until his semi-
retirement in 1991, a period in which he dominated Australian far-right
politics.
2
His successors David Thompson (1991–1999) and current
National Director Betty Luks share his Holocaust denial beliefs.
For the League, while prior to the Holocaust, Hitler was the Jews’
creation, in its aftermath this genocide is explained by Butler as “the
myth of the six million”
3
a “blatant fabrication” and “a propaganda
offensive from start to finish.”
4
Accordingly, the League deem both the
Anne Frank Museum in Amsterdam
5
and the American Simon
Wiesenthal Centre
6
as institutions not established to memorialize the
1
Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission, Racist Violence: Report of National
Inquiry into Racist Violence in Australia (Canberra: Australian Government Publishing
Service, 1991), 200.
2
Rubenstein, “Early Manifestations,” 93–109.
3
Andrew A. Campbell, The Australian League of Rights: A Study in Political Extremism and
Subversion (Collingwood, Victoria: Outback Press, 1978), 42.
4
New Times, Jan. 1991.
5
On Target, 18 May 1990.
6
On Target, 20 July 1990.
Page 3
Holocaust Denial in Australia
3
dead, but as cynical means to raise funds.
7
The League’s Holocaust
denial is an extension of its overtly hostile position to Jews which is
explained by two main considerations.
Firstly, the League’s ideology is based on the social credit, anti-
collectivist, and antisemitic notions developed in the 1930s by
discredited British economist C. H. Douglas. He explained the
Depression, and his social credit alternative, in terms of real power being
vested in the hands of the financiers who were Jews bent on world
domination.
Before the Second World War, Butler was an organizer in the
Australian chapter of Douglas’s Social Credit Movement (SCM) and a
contributor to the social credit journal, New Times, which in 1935 denied
German atrocities against Jews as lies based on Jewish propaganda.
8
As a
SCM leader, Butler blamed international bankers and Jewish financiers
for the Depression, claimed the Nazis were maligned, and expressed
support for fascism, including the Axis during the Second World War.
9
Secondly, the League’s antisemitism in general, and Holocaust
denial in particular, is the result of Butler’s theological world view. A
one-time member of the Anglican synod, Butler believes “Christian
civilisation is being crucified by the policies of the Anti-Christ.... The
modern barbarians have long since breached the walls protecting
Civilisation; they are now firmly established inside the gates.…”
10
In this
vein, the League claims that Jesus himself was not Jewish
11
and describes
Judaism as a “Pharisaic disease choking genuine Christianity”
12
for which
it is a “primary adversary.”
13
The “theological” framework which explains the League’s
Holocaust denial is illustrated in Butler’s three-page article “The ‘Jewish
Holocaust’ Threat to Christianity” which illustrates that his denial is
motivated by an attempt to exonerate Christian complicity in
antisemitism in general and the Holocaust in particular. He writes
If as Zionist propagandists are insisting, the alleged “Holocaust”
during the Second World War was the culmination of two
thousand years of Christian persecution of the Jewish people, and
the roots of “anti-semitism” are to be found in “The New
Testament,” particularly St Mathews gospel and that Christians
7
As documented below, these views lead to ties with leading Holocaust deniers both
in Australia and overseas.
8
New Times, 1 Nov. 1935.
9
Campbell, Australian League of Rights, 3–4.
10
On Target, 21 Apr. 1995.
11
Australian Jewish News, 10 June 1988.
12
On Target, 18 Dec. 1992.
13
New Times, Feb. 1994
Page 4
Danny Ben-Moshe
4
everywhere must accept collective guilt for the systematic gassing
of millions of Jews in German concentration camps, it is the duty
of Christians to face the far-reaching implications of the “The
Holocaust” issue. The first thing that must be said is that the
“holocaust” issue is not simply one of history but has become a
religious question, one of a faith which ignores any evidence
suggesting that the “holocaust” story may be false.
14
Butler contends that the Holocaust is an act of “psychopolitical
warfare”
15
which is part of “an on-going strategy designed to reverse the
defeat experienced by the Pharisees two thousand years ago.”
16
With an estimated 2000 activists in the League, Holocaust denial
would be supported by the organization’s core supporters, although the
less active would be attracted to the League for its other political
activities, such as social credit policy and lobbying on issues such as the
debate about whether Australia should become a Republic.
J
OHN
B
ENNETT AND
T
HE
A
USTRALIAN
C
IVIL
L
IBERTIES
U
NION
The Australian Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) headed by John Bennett is
the second organization established in Australia for which Holocaust
denial is a primary objective. The ACLU’s main strategy is to campaign
for Holocaust denial as a freedom of speech and civil liberties issue.
Bennett, a retired lawyer in his sixties, claims he used to believe in
the Holocaust until he read Arthur Butz’s 1977 book The Hoax of the
Twentieth Century, recalling “it was if the blinders had been lifted from my
eyes.”
17
He asserts, “I believe, as a lawyer, that allegations—especially
those which cause offence to an ethnic group, in this case, Germans—
should not be made without supporting evidence.”
18
How Bennett came across Butz’s book in unknown, but it led him
to get national coverage for denial in 1979 when the National Times
newspaper published a 13-point memorandum he was preparing to send
to academics based on Butz’s thesis and that of other deniers he had
read, such as Robert Faurisson and Helmut Diwald.
19
Later that year he
made his first trip outside of Australia to attend the first international
“Revisionist Convention” in Los Angeles organized by the Californian-
based Institute for Historical Review (IHR).
20
Bennett banally said of his
14
New Times, May 1995.
15
New Times, Nov. 1989.
16
New Times, Nov. 1989.
17
Supplement to Spotlight, 3 Mar. 1980.
18
Your Rights, (1998).
19
Rubenstein, “Early Manifestations,” 93.
20
ADL Facts, June 1980.
Page 5
Holocaust Denial in Australia
5
participation, “As a bored public servant I just find it intellectually
stimulating.... I’m a detached cynic.... [W]e’re in very short supply in this
conformist society.”
21
His participation in the conference led to
increased involvement with the IHR, and his becoming an Editorial
Advisory Committee member of IHR’s Journal of Historical Review.
Bennett’s embrace of denial led to his 1980 suspension and
eventual removal from the Victorian Council of Civil Liberties (VCCL).
He had been Honorary Secretary of the VCCL since 1966, but its
leadership was concerned that his personal views would be seen as those
of the VCCL.
22
By 1984 he established the ACLU, a name which has
worked to Bennett’s advantage, for while the League are taboo many
unsuspecting media and politicians have assumed the ACLU is a bona
fide civil liberties organization for whom they have provided a platform.
The ACLU is a small organization run from Bennett’s home,
23
and Holocaust denial appears to be part of his broader world view, with
Bennett claiming, for example, that Einstein’s theory of relativity had
never been proved.
24
However, through his annual and widely available
civil liberties guide Your Rights described below, the media seek his
commentary on freedom of speech issues and other Holocaust deniers
take his legal counsel when their freedom of speech is curtailed.
F
REDRICK
T
OBEN AND THE
A
DELAIDE
I
NSTITUTE
Although the Adelaide Institute is the most recently established of the
three Holocaust-denying organizations, its founder and director Fredrick
Toben, in his late fifties, is Australia’s best-known Holocaust denier. The
Adelaide Institute add to the political work of the League and the legal
work of the ACLU by offering a quasi-historical dimension to Holocaust
denial, although none of its leaders are trained historians.
Toben came to national attention in April 1999, when he was
arrested after presenting Holocaust denial material to a state prosecutor
in Germany, where denying the dead is a criminal offence—something
Toben was on the record as saying he knew. While his supporters
presented him as a “martyr for truth,” it is possible that he wanted to
remake himself as Australia’s David Irving.
25
After a three-day trial in
November 1999, Toben was convicted and sentenced to ten months in
21
The Bulletin, 18 Sept. 1979.
22
The Age, 2 Apr. 1980.
23
Bennett, letter to Without Prejudice, 10 Apr. 1991, claimed 400 members in 1991,
although only about 50 attended the organisation’s AGM during this period, The Age,
6 Oct. 1990.
24
Radio 3RRR, 7 Dec. 1987.
25
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org accessed 13 Nov. 1999.
Page 6
Danny Ben-Moshe
6
prison. Having already served seven months in a Mannheim prison while
awaiting trial, he was freed after paying 6000 Deutschmarks (AUS
$5000).
26
These events, and a finding against him by the Australian
Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission in 2001 that material
on his Internet site breached the 1995 Racial Hatred Act by denigrating
Jews, have succeeded in placing his case, and thus Holocaust denial, in
the public arena in the same way actions against Ernst Zündel did in
Canada in the 1980s. Toben has documented his views and experiences
in his book, Fight or Flight: the Personal Face of Revisionism.
Toben has succeeded in making himself a player in the
international denial movement with Willis Carto, for example, describing
him as “the pre-eminent Australian holocaust denier.”
27
His activities
have been reported in varying degrees by Ernst Zündel and the IHR.
The Adelaide Institute Internet site is one of six that Bradley Smith’s
Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust highlight in their
“revisionist archive.”
28
Toben arrived in Australia in 1945 with his family from Germany
as a one-year-old. After gaining undergraduate degrees from Melbourne
University in Australia and Wellington University in New Zealand, he
undertook postgraduate studies in Germany, receiving a Ph.D. in
philosophy from Stuttgart University. In advancing Holocaust denial he
portrays himself, his ideas, and his organization in academic terms. “I
wrote my thesis on Karl Popper” he claims, “and I therefore cannot
Accordingly his denial extends beyond the Holocaust, with Toben
arguing,
The mind-set of those who believe in the existence of homicidal
gas chambers is the same as that of scientists who believe in the
HIV equals AIDS hypothesis. It is a deeply totalitarian mind-set
which lacks the flexibility and honesty that is the hall- mark of
truly civilised people.
29
He also disputes that the Greenhouse effect is a proven fact.
30
Toben was an employee of the Victorian Department of
Education and Training in Melbourne until his dismissal in 1985 on the
grounds of incompetence and disobedience, a move he challenged and
claims to have won in the courts.
31
After driving a school bus for four
26
Sydney Morning Herald, 13 Nov. 1999.
27
http://www.williscarto.com/toben.html accessed 8 July 2002.
28
wysiwyg://13/http://vho.org/Archive.html accessed 3 July 2002.
29
Truth Missions, 2 May 1994.
30
Horsham Mail-Times, 7 Nov. 1990.
31
http://www.adam.com.au/fredadin/travel_diary.html accessed 4 Dec. 1999.
Page 7
Holocaust Denial in Australia
7
years, he gained relief work in Adelaide where he settled, with the
Adelaide Institute being his full-time occupation for several years.
Unemployed, Toben began to move in far Right circles,
specifically that of the League, whose 1990 National seminar he
addressed on Aboriginal land rights and multiculturalism.
32
His
involvement with the League, which he described as an organization
involved in the self-preservation battle,”
33
would have exposed him to
their views on Holocaust denial, and subsequently on February 9, 1994
he produced a one-page flyer called Truth Missions which was handed to
members of Adelaide’s Jewish community attending a charity premier of
Schindler’s List. By June 1994, Truth Missions was renamed The Adelaide
Institute, a Holocaust-denying publication which evolved into an
organization of the same name and objective, offering conferences,
speakers, and the most comprehensive Australian denial Internet site.
Toben modeled the name of his publication and organization on
the respected think-tank, the Sydney Institute, believing that such a name
would add credibility to his cause. This strategy has been vindicated, with
the Adelaide Institute referred to in the media as a think-tank, and with
Toben described as a historian, despite having no formal history
qualifications.
Unlike the League or the ACLU, the estimated 250 members of
the Adelaide Institute are dedicated Holocaust deniers. As with the
ACLU, the Adelaide Institute is run inexpensively out of Toben’s
suburban home, with income generated through membership fees, and
some members being in a position to provide extra financial support.
34
A
NTISEMITISM
All three Australian denial groups strenuously deny any notion of
antisemitism, claiming that they are engaged in historical enquiry and
open debate. However, a broader analysis demonstrates clear hostility
towards Jews. Indeed, this evidence suggests that their Holocaust denial
is an extension of their antisemitism. In particular, they subscribe to the
Protocols of the Elders of Zion, its modern versions and concomitant belief in
inherent Jewish evil and the notion of a Jewish-Communist conspiracy.
32
New Times, Nov. 1990.
33
The Sunday Age, 6 Jan. 1991.
34
Adelaide Institute associate Michael Mazur, for instance, pledged to financially assist
their international conference described below (Adelaide Institute, no. 80 (Oct. 1998).
Page 8
Danny Ben-Moshe
8
The Protocols and Inherent Jewish Evil
Belief in the authenticity of Protocols is a logical part of Holocaust denial
philosophy, for if the Holocaust did not happen there must be a massive
worldwide Jewish conspiracy to perpetuate the fraud. As Dina Porat
observed, Holocaust denial is one of the “new variations on the
underlying central idea” of Jewish world domination. It depicts the Jews
as a sophisticated and powerful world organization, capable of talking
the entire world into believing in a hoax which they invented, even
though it lacks any factual basis whatsoever. In other words, Jewish
domination of the world is so gripping and total, that Jews may in fact
carry out any scheme that they care to design; they have the ability to
present any lie and make it pass as a tragic truth accepted by millions.
The story of the Holocaust as the Jews present it is the best possible
proof that the world is indeed in their hands, because this baseless
horror story rewards them with money and sympathy; it provides Jews
with the victim status which is an excellent starting point for conducting
profitable negotiations and making extortionate demands. Denying the
Holocaust also implies that Jews have a sick and morbid imagination able
to invent gas chambers, mass murders and indescribable tortures—in
itself a pinnacle of evil.
35
In 1945 the Protocols was published in Melbourne for those
associated with the social credit movement,
36
and in 1946 Butler
authored The International Jew, an Australian version of the Protocols. While
conceding in The International Jew that the authenticity of the Protocols may
be disputed, its portrayal of the Jewish plot for global control was clearly
endorsed. The International Jew included a long list “proving” Jewish
power, ranging from Jews being behind violent events such as the
Spanish Inquisition to controlling the media and universities in
contemporary Australia. Elsewhere, Butler writes that Zionism is the
machination of the “Elders of Zion,” a group with whom no
compromise is possible.
37
The League became the main Australian distributor of the
Protocols, viewing events through its prism of a global Jewish conspiracy.
Butler’s views about Jewish power and scheming, for example, included
the claim that Hitler and Mussolini were tools of the Jews,
38
who also
35
“Dina Porat, “New Uses of an Old Myth,” in Demonizing the Other: Antisemitism,
Racism and Xenophobia, edited by Robert S. Wistrich (Chur: Harwood Academic
Publishers, 1999), 325.
36
Rodney Gouttman, Journal of Australian Jewish Historical Societies 11 (1990): 155–59.
37
New Times, May 1995.
38
The West Australian, 25 Nov. 1995.
Page 9
Holocaust Denial in Australia
9
orchestrated Saddam Hussein’s 1990 invasion of Kuwait and the
subsequent Gulf War.
39
Bennett has not openly advocated the Protocols, but he appears to
adhere to its theme, commenting that the fact that the wives of four
prime ministers were of Jewish descent “explains many things that are
happening here.”
40
His deputies, however, have been more overt.
ACLU vice-president Jonathan Graham regularly refers readers to
the Protocols in his column in the far Right publication, The Strategy,
claiming it is “not a forgery but a blueprint which can be seen being put
into action....”
41
arguing that the Protocols “fit the facts and explains what
is happening.”
42
Describing in his columns the “Zionist Occupation
Government,”
43
he refers readers to Henry Ford’s The International Jew.
44
Like Bennett, Toben is not on the record as having spoken about
the Protocols, but he does speak about “international finance plundering”
countries,
45
and euphemistically refers to “Talmudic Jews,” claiming “we
see how difficult it is for the Jews to abandon their hate-filled Talmudic
tradition.”
46
As with Bennett, it is Toben’s deputies who directly espouse
the Protocols and related claims.
Toben’s deputy until November 2000 was the Berlin-born David
Brockschmidt, who had an unusual background for a Holocaust denier.
His parents were declared Righteous Among the Nations for helping
supply trucks to Oscar Schindler during the war, and he spent eleven
years working for the British army in the Rhine as a civilian, and two
years in Israel from 1977–1979 before settling in Australia.
47
Brockschmidt describes “the schemes of the International Jews”
engaged in “world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and
for the reconstruction of society on the basis of arrested development, of
envious malevolence, and impossible equality.”
48
This is based on his
belief in “the cunning and crafty behaviour of powerful Jewish groups in
the financial world, in the world media, in global culture, in world
39
On Target, 25 Jan. 1991.
40
Free Thought, 3 May 1987.
41
The Strategy, June 1999.
42
The Strategy, March 2000.
43
The Strategy, February 2001.
44
The Strategy, March 2001.
45
www.adam.com.au/fredadin/travel_diary.html accessed 4 Dec. 1999.
46
Adelaide Institute, Sept. 1995.
47
Intelligence Survey, July 1995.
48
Adelaide Institute, Aug. 1995.
Page 10
Danny Ben-Moshe
10
politics and in practically all aspects of life,”
49
referring to the “anti-
Gentile Babylonian Talmud” as “the root of evil.”
50
In Tasmania, the Adelaide Institute’s Olga Scully has made the
distribution of the Protocols, together with cartoons portraying ugly
hooked-nose Jews sitting on piles of money tricking the world into their
conspiracy, a regular part of the Adelaide Institute’s work.
51
When
distribution of the Protocols led to a hearing before the Human Rights and
Equal Opportunities Commission Scully claimed the “truth” of the
Protocols as her defense.
52
Similarly, antisemitic views were expressed by ACLU secretary
Geoff Muriden, who in 1997 wrote to Christian clergy on ACLU
letterhead stating “the Jews of the present day are the ‘Synagogues of
Satan’” and enclosed a Council of Christians and Jews document
defaced with the words “Complete sell out of the Gospel to
accommodate the AntiChrist Jews.”
53
Bennett dissociated the ACLU
from the letters and replaced Muriden as Secretary, but he moved
sideways to become Toben’s Assistant Director at the Adelaide Institute
before returning to the ACLU in mid 2000 as their research officer.
54
The “Jewish-Communist Conspiracy”
The Australian far Right have long maintained opposition to
Communism as a central part of their beliefs. As an anti-Imperial
movement, Communism was at odds with the British Empire with
which the Right was closely identified, and Communism’s anti-racist
agenda meant rights for Aborigines and Asians, and a broad
cosmopolitanism. Furthermore, until the collapse of the former Soviet
Union, the Communist threat to Australia from Asia was regarded with
genuine concern. For the far Right, Communism was seen as a Jewish
movement, which Holocaust deniers argued was advanced through the
“Holocaust myth.”
As an organisation dedicated to the Empire and the Crown, anti-
Communism was a key component of the League’s rationale and in 1943
Father Patrick Gearson, a Melbourne-based professor of theology who
became a prominent League supporter, authored Communism Unmasked
under the pseudonym Jean Patrice. Describing Communism as being “a
Jewish movement inspired by Satan and hence diabolically clever,” early
49
Open letter to the leaders of world Jewry, 20 June 1996,
http://www.adam.com.au/fredadin/worldjew.html accessed 2 Nov. 1998.
50
Ibid.
51
Australian Jewish News, 16 Oct. 1998.
52
http://www.adam.com.au/fredadin/media_release_olga_scully_01.html
53
ADC Briefing, 4 Nov. 1997.
54
ACLU Letterhead cited by author.
Page 11
Holocaust Denial in Australia
11
editions focused on Jewish communist atrocities. Since 1970, it has been
published and distributed by the League, and is unequivocal in its denial
of the Holocaust.
In 1961, Butler authored The Red Pattern of World Conquest in which
he identified Communism at all levels of society, from the women’s
movement to the wool industry. He takes up the idea of the Jewish-
Communist conspiracy in several of his books. In The War Behind the War
(1940), he argued that the avenue through which Jews achieved power
since the French Revolution was through socialism.
55
In the undated
Censored History he explained that international finance and Communism
were linked to an “international power structure” to support a “New
World Order.” Antisemitism and anti-Communism thus became a
complementary focus of League activity.
The Adelaide Institute and the ACLU also adhere to the belief in a
direct link between Judaism and Communism. In the words of
Brockschmidt, “there is a philosophical and religious link between
Talmudic Judaism and Marxism-Leninism.”
56
In the words of Muriden,
Bolshevism “was a Jewish creation maintained by Jews, which would
make them liable for the murders, tortures and slavery committed in its
name.”
57
In this, not only do they deny Jews rights as victims, but they
turn them into aggressors. For example, Brockschmidt and Muridenrefer
to the “Bolshevik-Jewish holocausts,”
58
Toben speaks of the tsar and his
family being executed by “Jewish Bolsheviks,”
59
and Olga Scully claims
both her grandfathers were killed by “Jewish revolutionaries” in Russia.
60
Family experience such as that which Scully refers to helps explain
why individuals subscribe to denial. Explaining how her family fled to
Germany from Russia where they were well looked after, Scully says “If I
can do a little bit to repay that, then I will because we would have all died
if it had not been for them, yet whenever you read about them they are
all Nazis who gas 6 million Jews and it’s a whole lot of lies.”
61
Little is
known about Toben’s family background, although being of German
origin he appears to reflect the motive of deniers, minimizers, and
relativists in Germany that want to dissociate the name of Germany
from the events of the Second World War. Bennett is not known to be
of German origin but he has a strong affiliation to the country, claiming
in 1999 to have visited there for 10 of the previous 12 years.
62
55
Campbell, Australian League of Rights, 33.
56
Adelaide Institute, Aug. 1995.
57
Adelaide Institute, Aug. 1995.
58
Adelaide Advertiser, 26 Oct. 1995; New Times, Apr. 1995.
59
http://www.adam.com.au/fredadin/travel_diary.html accessed 4 Dec. 1999.
60
The Australian, 28 Sept. 2000.
61
Ibid.
62
Wimmera Mail Times, 7 June 1999.
Page 12
Danny Ben-Moshe
12
O
PERATING
M
ETHODS
The Holocaust deniers disseminate their views in a multitude of ways,
but irrespective of the methods employed their arguments are
repackaged versions of those devised by European and North American
deniers. As such, Australian deniers add little to the ideas of their
overseas peers and they are highly dependent on them. Their main
claims are:
• The six million figure is a myth perpetuated to achieve Zionist
goals in Palestine, with Bennett arguing that in 1938 “there were
only 6.5 million Jews in Europe”
63
and the actual number of
Jews to die in the War was about 500,000.
64
• There is no “proof,” according to Toben, that even those
500,000
65
were murdered, for there was no policy of
extermination. Bennett explains that the 1942 Wannsee
Conference, at which the Final Solution was agreed upon,
“refers to the evacuation to the East not to extermination.”
66
• What the victims actually died from, according to Bennett, was
disease, most notably typhus.
67
Toben provides that this explains
the presence of Zyklon B, for rather than kill Jews by gassing it
was, as Bennett concurs, used to kill the disease that threatened
them.
68
The League says 100,000 died of disease.
69
• Gassing did not occur, with the Adelaide Institute asserting
there were no gas chambers,
70
and the ACLU stating they were
“reconstructed or fabricated” after the war.
71
• The Holocaust was created, according to The League, to justify
the formation of the State of Israel.
72
• The Germans were victims, not persecutors, in what Toben
describes as the “Dresden Holocaust,”
73
with a July 1982 letter
by Bennett to the University of Melbourne student newspaper
Farrago stating that the only Holocaust was of a million Germans
63
Free Thought, 3 May 1987.
64
Melbourne Times, 10 Feb. 1982.
65
Adelaide Institute, 2 July 1994.
66
Your Rights (1993).
67
Toorak Times, 16 Mar. 1988.
68
Toorak Times, 16 Mar. 1988.
69
New Times, May 1995.
70
Adelaide Institute, 27 Jan. 1995.
71
Your Rights (1993).
72
On Target, 3 Nov. 2000.
73
Adelaide Institute, 28 Feb. 1995.
Page 13
Holocaust Denial in Australia
13
and Japanese who died by allied saturation bombings.
74
This is
consistent with Yehuda Bauer’s observation that the message of
Holocaust denial “is to set the victim and the perpetrator on the
same level.”
75
The ways in which these arguments are advanced by the three
denial groups reflects their different operating methods.
The League
League Holocaust denial is advanced:
• In their publications, the monthly New Times Survey
76
which
offers detailed analysis on current affairs, and the weekly On
Target with bulletin style information and promotion of
upcoming events;
• At regular meetings of their front organizations, such as the
Conservative Speakers Club, which are often addressed by
Holocaust deniers such Toben;
• By selling tapes of lectures given at their forums, in addition to
sending these for free to public libraries;
• By publishing Holocaust denial books through their publishing
arm Veritas, whose authors include David Irving;
• By running Letters to the Editor campaigns; and
• By organizing Australian speaking tours for overseas deniers,
such as David Irving, discussed below.
ACLU
The ACLU’s main activity is the annual publication of Your Rights which
is also available online. Available for AUD 4.95 from most local news
agencies, the attraction of this booklet is the succinct summation of legal
advice on a range of issues from tenancy laws to police questioning, but
it also exposes purchasers to Holocaust denial and opposition to non-
white immigration and Aboriginal reconciliation.
As noted above, in choosing the name for his organization and
publication Bennett hoped its legitimate sounding title would give it
access that would otherwise be denied. This deceptive suggestion of
being a bona fide civil liberties publication, has secured for Your Rights
the promotional quotes which appear on its back cover from popular
magazines New Idea, Women’s’ Weekly, Vogue, Simply Living, and
74
Farrago, 14 July 1982.
75
Yehuda Bauer, “Antisemitism in Western Europe,” in Antisemitism through the Ages,
edited by Shmuel Almog (Oxford: Pergamon, 1988), 384.
76
It replaced Intelligence Survey and the New Times from January 2000.
Page 14
Danny Ben-Moshe
14
Cosmopolitan. It was even positively reviewed in the journal of the
Victorian Law Institute.
77
This process has so angered genuine civil
libertarians that the South Australian Civil Liberties Council attacked it
for being racist and misleading
78
and the New South Wales Council for
Civil Liberties called for it to be supplanted by a genuine book on legal
rights.
79
Despite Your Rights being the subject of Federal Court injunction
hearings
80
an anti-Discrimination hearing in New South Wales, and the
national bookseller Angus and Robertson removing it from their
shelves,
81
it is likely to remain in circulation for the foreseeable future.
Thus, a segment of the community which would not otherwise come
across denial material is thereby exposed to it.
Purporting to be a civil liberties organization, the ACLU lobbies
on legal issues with a racial dimension. For example, Geoff Muriden
appeared before the Senates Legal and Constitutional Legislation
Committee hearing on Racial Vilification in 1995
82
and Bennett also
attended the 1989 National Inquiry into Racial Violence and the 1993
Attorney General’s hearing on racial vilification, although there is no
evidence their representations influenced outcomes. Of more practical
effect is the ACLU drawing on Bennett’s legal background to act as a de
facto legal advice arm for deniers when their views lead to legal disputes
as illustrated below.
Like the League, the ACLU succeeds in getting Letters to the
Editor published and its spokesmen appear as commentators on current
affairs programs on related issues, such as the debate about regulation of
the Internet, a subject of great importance to the far Right as a whole.
Like the League they also provide a forum for Holocaust deniers, so
when Paul Madigan was dismissed by music radio station 3RRR in 1988
for his on air Holocaust denial, Bennett came out in his defense
83
and
provided him with a platform by inviting him to address the ACLUs
1990 AGM.
84
This proved to be an important strategic move as Madigan
became active in the Australians Against Further Immigration and One
Nation political parties as is described below.
77
Law Institute Journal, August 1999.
78
Adelaide News, 28 Feb. 1990.
79
Australian Jewish Times, 22 Oct. 1987.
80
The Age, 28 Mar. 1984.
81
Australian Jewish News, 28 May 1993.
82
AustraIia Israel Review, 23 Mar.–13 Apr. 1995.
83
Toorak Sunday Times, 18 Dec. 1988.
84
Your Rights (1990).
Page 15
Holocaust Denial in Australia
15
Adelaide Institute
The main activity of the Adelaide Institute is the publication of their
eponymously titled newsletter and its electronic version Adelaide Institute
Online.
The hard copy publication is a cheap stapled photocopy, usually
consisting of articles that have appeared in the press in relation to the
Holocaust, articles from Holocaust denying websites and articles about
the Adelaide Institute, especially from Jewish sources. By comparison,
the Adelaide Institute website, which has always been more
comprehensive and impressive, offers an array of articles, many by
Toben, and photos of him at Auschwitz standing in a gas chamber
pointing to holes where he contends the gas would exit the chamber.
However, after a 2003 legal finding forced Toben to remove denial
material from his website, it has been has been replaced with general far
Right material and anti-Zionism. Both the legal case and his shift to anti-
Zionism are discussed below.
Viewing themselves as historians in the same way that the IHR
does, Toben digs into archives to find the “truth” about the Holocaust,
and consistent with international denial efforts since the Leuchter Report,
they also undertake “scientific” research to prove their case. For
example, with funding from undisclosed sources, the Adelaide Institute’s
Richard Krege, an electronics engineer in his thirties, went to Treblinka
in 1999 where he used ground penetrating radar to find that soil under
which Jews had been buried was undisturbed, leading him to conclude
there were no mass graves there and thus no Treblinka was not a death
camp. Indicative of how such “reports” generate media interest the
Canberra Times in Australia’s capital city and the Examiner in Tasmania
reported his findings without challenge. The extent to which this
Australian denial is used by overseas deniers was seen by Krege’s
findings being reported on the Internet by the Holocaust Review Press,
the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust, David Irving’s Focal
Point, and the IHR.
85
Like most other racist groups, the Internet has become a primary
and indispensable medium for the Adelaide Institute. Toben explains,
The Internet has given individuals the freedom to break free of
emotionally mutated and morally truncated thought-patterns.
Responsive persons can now follow their inner voice and develop
85
Canberra Times, 24 Jan. 2002; The Examiner, 24 Jan. 2002,
http://www.codoh.org/bbs/messages/2407.html ;
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Treblinka/groundscan.html;
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n3p20radar.html, all web sites accessed 7 Aug.
2002.
Page 16
Danny Ben-Moshe
16
that inner potential which is waiting for liberation, development
and fulfillment.
86
The Adelaide Institute use the Internet strategically to increase
their efficiency and organizational power, for example, by issuing calls
for action in real time as they did in the respective trials of Toben and
David Irving. With the added advantage of spreading their message far
beyond their small fringe constituency, they have actively campaigned
against regulation of the Internet, a subject discussed further below.
Toben appears to regard himself as an ambassador at large for
Holocaust denial, and it was in this vein that he approached the
magistrate in Germany which led to his imprisonment. In Australia, he
makes a point of attending Jewish community meetings, often with other
Adelaide Institute officials, where when an opportunity arises he stands
to ask questions and introduces himself in the process. In April 1998, for
example, he joined a tour at Melbourne's Holocaust Museum. According
to witnesses he repeatedly challenged the guide, disputing the assertion
that smoke came from the crematoria. He also claimed that the railway
lines into the Birkenau concentration camp were built after the war. An
Auschwitz survivor interjected that he personally saw the smoke
billowing from the crematoria, that he personally traveled on those trains
lines and that he personally lost his entire family in the Holocaust. Toben
remained calm throughout the exchange, left his Adelaide Institute
business card and departed.
87
Toben is the main speaker on Holocaust denial on the far Right’s
speaker circuit, and has played a key role in ensuring that denial has
become a central belief to the far Right as whole. Toben is very active
writing Letters to the Editor and calling talk back radio, a very popular
form of Australian media. As a result of his German trial, Toben has the
highest profile of any denier, and is often quoted in the media when
denial news stories are generated by his legal cases. Another important
feature of the Adelaide Institute’s work is to be the main Australian
point of contact with overseas deniers with whom Toben maintains
close relations, as described below.
T
ARGETING UNIVERSITIES
Deniers have identified universities as important arenas in which to
advance their ideas because making denial an issue of historical debate in
academic circles it will provide the credibility they seek. Bennett’s
86
Travel Diary, 17 Apr. 2000,
http//www.adelaideinstitute.org/chapter_03/diary_2000.html, accessed 1 May 2000.
87
ADC Briefing, Sept. 1998.
Page 17
Holocaust Denial in Australia
17
memorandum noted above, for example, was a prelude to a draft article
he intended to send to six European history lecturers in an attempt to
engage them in debate.
88
While the deniers want academic respectability, they are, in fact,
hostile toward universities. Toben describes how “history departments at
our universities resemble ideological faculties reminiscent of Marxist-
Leninist state-run institutions,”
89
blasting as “cowards” academics who
“will be shamed for having remained silent on the Jewish Holocaust
issue”
90
when they know the truth.
91
Although there have been no
dedicated university campaigns such as those undertaken by denier
Bradley Smith in America, there are four main aspects to the Australian
deniers academic campaign.
Firstly, university libraries are contacted to purchase denial books
for their holdings, because having these on their shelves provides the
book with credibility and equivalence between the work of genuine
historians and that of the deniers.
Secondly, historians are engaged in debate about denial.
Accordingly, Bennett has written to academics asking for their views on
the Holocaust, raising denial issues and suggesting the availability of
Holocaust denial material. In 1995, Toben attended the Australasian
Association of European Historians conference at the University of New
South Wales where he engaged with academics and spoke from the floor,
leading German Professor Mommsen to respond “What rubbish you
talk.”
92
This was one of several university encounters where Toben has
been disruptive.
In September 1996, Toben and Brockschmidt repeatedly
disrupted an Adelaide University continuing education class called
Hitler’s Germany: Will History Repeat? Most attendees lodged formal
complaints which led the Director of Continuing Education to issue a
written apology. A similar incident arose at the same University in 1994
when Toben and Brockschmidt had a heated confrontation with
Holocaust survivor and Jewish community leader Fred Steiner and
Holocaust historian Dr. Paul Bartrop when they were guest speakers at a
campus meeting organized by a Catholic group.
93
Thirdly, they expose students to denial literature. Holocaust denial
pamphlets written by Bennett were found in historical reference books at
Melbourne and Monash universities in July 1994; Bennett personally
88
Rubenstein, “Early Manifestations,” 93.
89
http://www.adam.com.au/fredadin/50-brock.html accessed 2 Nov. 1998.
90
Truth Missions, 21 Feb. 1994.
91
Truth Missions, 14 Mar. 1994.
92
Adelaide Institute, Sept. 1995.
93
Australian Jewish News, 29 July 1994.
Page 18
Danny Ben-Moshe
18
distributed literature in the University of Melbourne Student Union
building during the Jewish student’s Holocaust Awareness week in April
1998, and he has written letters to student union papers.
94
Fourthly, they organize Holocaust denial speakers on campus.
This was an important part of David Irving’s program during his 1986
visit to Australia where he spoke at the Australian National University in
Canberra in a lecture arranged and booked by an external non-academic
group.
95
Similarly, Bennett accompanied Irving on a talk at Melbourne
University which was given in the corridor because the University
refused to provide Irving use of a lecture theatre.
96
Overall, it appears most academics won’t engage with deniers, on
the basis that debating the issue with them confers legitimacy on their
ideas: only one academic has openly identified with them—Dr. William
DeMaria, a lecturer at the School of Social Work and Social Policy at the
University of Queensland. However, hoping to expose students who
have no personal memory of the Second World War but who will be
influential members of the Australian community to their ideas, deniers
are likely to continue their university based efforts.
THE
I
NTERRELATIONSHIP BETWEEN
T
HE
L
EAGUE
,
THE
A
DELAIDE
I
NSTITUTE
,
AND THE
ACLU
The League, Adelaide Institute and ACLU maintain a close and
complementary relationship reflected in the way they regard each other
in the most complimentary of terms. The League has portrayed Bennett
as “Australia’s leading and most influential libertarian,”
97
while Bennett
has praised the League “for its fight against media censorship on issues
such as immigration, multiculturalism and finance.”
98
Bennett personally
attended the testimonial dinner to mark Butler’s semi-retirement, where
he praised his “courage and tenacity.”
99
Toben, while denying being a
League activist, said he held those who were “in the highest regard” for
having “shown a deep concern for the well being of Australia.”
100
The three groups rely on each other for audiences. For example,
Bennett has addressed several League meetings and written for League
94
Farrago, 14 July 1982.
95
“The Committee of the 30th Anniversary of the 1956 Hungarian Uprising, The
Australian, 26 Mar”. 1986.
96
The Age, 15 Apr. 1986.
97
New Times, July 1992.
98
New Times, Nov. 1989.
99
New Times, July 1992.
100
Letter to Adelaide News which Toben sent to the B’nai B’rith Anti-Defamation
Commission, 23 Dec. 1991.
Page 19
Holocaust Denial in Australia
19
publications,
101
while Toben conducted a national speaking tour for the
League on his return from Germany in 2000.
102
The three organizations similarly rely on each other for mutual
promotion. For instance, tapes of Adelaide Institute and ACLU talks to
League meetings are distributed by the League, who also promote Your
Rights.
103
The Adelaide Institute publishes material by Butler
104
and
ACLU vice president Graham Pember refers readers of his Strategy
column to the League’s On Target
105
and recommends that readers
contact the League to purchase “controversial books on Zionist political
terrorism.”
106
The three organizations provide other assistance to each
other. For example, when the League arranged screenings of a David
Irving video after he was denied entry into Australia in 1993, it was
Bennett who organized the Melbourne showing,
107
and when the League
arranged for Canadian lawyer Doug Collins to visit Adelaide as part of a
national speaking tour, the Adelaide Institute was the local contact
address.
108
The three organizations also turn to each other when legal and
political difficulties arise. When Toben was incarcerated in Germany his
deputy David Brockschmidt addressed the League’s Adelaide
Conservative Speakers Club on the events surrounding Toben’s trial.
109
The ACLU set up a defence fund for Toben’s German trial which raised
$6000,
110
Bennett planned to travel to Germany to advise Toben during
his incarceration,
111
and the League’s Nigel Jackson wrote letters to the
mainstream press in Toben’s defence.
112
Overall, the relationship between the three organizations is
necessary because they provide each other with practical and moral
support and a core constituency and rationale that they would otherwise
be denied.
101
New Times, 1989.
102
On Target, 14 Jan. 2000.
103
On Target, 2 Apr. 1984.
104
Adelaide Institute, 2 Oct. 1994.
105
The Strategy, Mar. 1999.
106
The Strategy, Apr. 1999.
107
The Age, 20 May 1993.
108
Adelaide Institute, Dec. 1995.
109
On Target, 28 May 1999.
110
Wimmera Mail-Times, 14 May 1999.
111
Wimmera Mail Times, 7 June 1999.
112
On Target, 27 Oct. 2000.
Page 20
Danny Ben-Moshe
20
I
NTERNATIONAL LINKS
Australia is both an importer and exporter of Holocaust denial, a fact
which reflects the international nature of Holocaust denial.
Through the Crown Commonwealth League of Rights, an
organization Butler established in 1972 and subsequently chaired,
113
Butler was able to directly disseminate his denial internationally, to New
Zealand in particular but also to the UK and Canada. Indeed, in a 1986
court case about a Canadian teacher’s alleged antisemitism in the
classroom, the defendant cited Butler’s Censored History (1978) in his
defense.
114
Today, League activist Nigel Jackson writes for the neo-Nazi
British National Party publication Spearhead,
115
and Toben is active with
his international peers in spreading denial to new countries, as was seen
in Russia where he joined American and European deniers in
participating in the first Revisionist conference in Moscow in 2001.
While Australians have exported denial, the importation into the
country of overseas denial has been fundamental to the development of
denial in Australia. With limited resources in Australia the overseas
deniers add a dimension that makes the work of the Australian deniers
more viable as they regularly publish and refer to the work of their
overseas peers. The League has gotten denial mainstream media
coverage by inviting to Australia speakers who attract media attention.
This includes the 1988 speaking tour of Dr. Robert Countess of
Alabama, an editorial advisory board member of the IHR,
116
and the
1991 visit of the Canadian lawyer Douglas Christie who represents
Holocaust deniers such as Ernst Zündel. This served as the basis for
ongoing support, evident in Christie’s contribution to League supporter
Nigel Jackson’s book, The Case for David Irving.
The clearest illustration of the local use of overseas deniers was
during the first Australian Revisionists Conference when the biggest
gathering of Holocaust deniers in Australia took place in August 1998 in
Adelaide. There were four speakers from overseas, including Butz from
America and Jürgen Graf from Switzerland who delivered two talks,
including the keynote address where he denied that one and a half
million people had been killed at Majdanek and denied that the gas
chambers were homicidal. Sixteen deniers participated by video or
phone, including Robert Faurrison, Mark Weber, Ahmed Rami, Ernst
Zündel, and Charles Weber.
117
113
Michael Moore, The Right Road (Oxford University Press Australia, 1995), 66.
114
The Age, 12 Feb. 1986.
115
See, for example, Spearhead, No.,325 (Mar. 1996).
116
Australia Israel Review, 1–14 Sept. 1988.
117
www.adelaideinstitute.org/newsletters/news80.html and
Page 21
Holocaust Denial in Australia
21
The relationship between Australian and overseas deniers is
mutually beneficial. That the overseas deniers are relied on by the
Australian deniers increases the former’s sense of relevance, purpose,
and effect. Organizations such as the IHR are able to cite their
participation in Australian activities as they present themselves as an
international organization. Similarly, the relationship Australian deniers
have with their overseas peers makes them feel that however marginal
they are locally, they are relevant internationally. As an IHR report about
the 1998 Adelaide conference stated, “For some time now, Australia has
been one of the most dynamic battlefields in the worldwide struggle
against the historical blackout. And at the forefront of the battle there is
the Adelaide Institute.”
118
Both Toben and Bennett regularly attend IHR conferences, but
the more active of the two through these networks is Toben, who has
extensive contacts with deniers across the globe. His European contacts
are well documented in his travel diary of a 1998 trip to Europe which
was devoted to meeting deniers, visiting concentration camps, including
Auschwitz, and delving into archives where his findings reaffirmed his
beliefs. In London he met Germar Rudolf where they discussed the
involvement of Adelaide Institute Online in an English language publication
Rudolf is planning, and he stayed with Rudolf on the farm of British
National party leader Nick Griffin. In Poland he met with Tomasz
Gabis, editor of the magazine Stancyk which features denial; in Vienna he
spent time with Emil Lachout, apparently an engineer who has “proved”
there were no gas chambers; and in France he visited Robert Faurisson
at his home. Details of contacts with others were not fully disclosed,
such as “Dr. D” and his interpreter “Dr. S” in Kiev.
119
In addition to reinforcing Toben’s world view and providing him
with information to disseminate in Australia there is a practical
dimension to these contacts. This was seen in Ludwig Bock who had
personally been convicted for Holocaust denial,
120
representing Toben
during his German trial, with German supporter Eric Rossler paying the
fine the German court imposed on Toben.
121
Overall, Holocaust denial in Australia can only be understood in
its global context, a factor which will influence its future direction. With
Toben attending the American Free Press/Barnes Review Fourth
Annual Conference in Washington D.C. in 2003 this international aspect
remains current.
www.adelaideinstitute.org/ newsletters/news81.html, accessed 13/7/2000.
118
ihr.org/ihr/v17/v17n6p-6.html accessed 26 June 2000.
119
www.adam.com.au/fredadin/travel_diary.html accessed 4 Dec. 1999.
120
Sydney Morning Herald, 13 Nov. 1999.
121
Adelaide Advertiser, 16 Nov. 1999.
Page 22
Danny Ben-Moshe
22
I
SRAEL
, Z
IONISM
,
THE
M
IDDLE
E
ASTERN CONNECTION
,
AND THE
L
EFT
A central thesis of denial is that the Holocaust “hoax” was created to
justify the formation of and ongoing support for the State of Israel.
Bennett, for example, identified two main reasons for his denial. “The
first is that the State of Israel and various Jews have obtained something
like about eighty billion dollars in compensation, and the second
motivation [is]…that were the Holocaust to be shown to be a hoax, the
number one weapon in Israel’s propaganda armoury disappears, and it’s
because it’s the number one propaganda weapon that we get so much of
the Holocaust on television.”
122
This rationale has led the denial
movement to win many adherents in the Middle East and there are
increasing links between Australian deniers and Middle Eastern regimes
and groups which support denial.
The Libyan regime of Colonel Gaddafi was active in Australia,
particularly during the 1970s and 1980s. Bennett wrote an article for the
first edition of the pro-Libyan magazine The Green March in 1986,
123
and
in 1988 he reportedly traveled to Libya as part of a delegation to sit on a
“tribunal” to “judge” the U.S. bombing of Libya.
124
Elsewhere, the
ACLU’s Graham Pember refers readers of his Strategy column to Radio
Islam, providing an extremist Islamic source of denial for Australians to
access.
When Toben held his 1998 international denial conference in
Adelaide, the United Arab Emirates Ambassador to Australia
attended.
125
In December 1999, Toben spent three weeks in Iran
126
where he lectured on denial to university students
127
and was interviewed
by the Tehran Times, which described him as a “German researcher
residing in Australia.”
128
Since then he has been interviewed from
Australia by the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting television about
the Pope’s 2000 visit to Jerusalem where he said “the Jewish politicians
are using the Holocaust and the six million dead figure as a justification
for suppressing the Palestinians and for claiming that Jerusalem is their
undivided capital.”
129
Clearly this is a mutually beneficial relationship,
with Toben enjoying the sense of relevance this provides and the
Iranians benefiting from using a Western figure to reinforce their views.
122
Quoted in Rubenstein, “Early Manifestations,” 94.
123
The Green March, Feb.–Mar. 1986.
124
Bulletin, 25 Apr. 1989.
125
Weekend Australian, 24 Oct. 1998.
126
Australian Jewish News, 10 Dece. 1999.
127
Australian Jewish News, 4 May 2001.
128
Tehran Times, 8 Dec. 1999.
129
Adelaide Institute, nos. 106 and 107.
Page 23
Holocaust Denial in Australia
23
Toben was also scheduled to speak at the Holocaust denial
conference in Lebanon in March 2001 which was cancelled by the
Lebanese Government. This would have brought him into contact with
Hizbullah and the most influential of racist figures such as the late
William Pierce. With Olga Scully also scheduled to attend the
conference, this reflects how the Adelaide Institute is a vehicle for its
members to participate in international Holocaust denial forums which
they would otherwise be unlikely to do so.
130
Toben responded to the Lebanon conference’s cancellation saying
Do not blame the Jewish-Zionists; blame the Cowards who bend.
The cancellation of the proposed Beirut ‘Zionism and
Revisionism’ conference does not illustrate how powerful the
Jewish Zionists are. It illustrates how cowardly those are who
yielded to the Zionist pressure.
131
These are views that would clearly be shared by organizations such as
Hizbullah and individuals such as Pierce.
Middle Eastern issues, or more specifically anti-Zionism, have
taken an increasingly prominent place in Toben’s activities. After the
Australian High Court ordered him to remove denial material from his
Internet site as is discussed below, the site is largely dedicated to the
Palestinian cause which provides a basis for indirect denial. For example,
in August 2003 Toben and his Adelaide Institute colleague Mohammed
Hegazi attended a conference in Iran on the Palestinian Intifada where
Toben was one of the speakers. The Adelaide Institute website included
photos of Toben wearing a black and white keffiyah, next to women in
traditional Islamic dress as he described how they questioned the
Holocaust. In other photos Toben and Hegazi appeared next to two
Palestinians who had witnessed that “Zionist ‘Holocaust’” and they
stood in front of a recreated Palestinian home demolished by the Israeli
army at Tehran University with the caption “A demolished home
symbolizes the actual ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their own
homes: millions of Germans suffered this fate at the end of World War
Two, carried out by the same Axis of Evil that supports aggression
against and oppresses the Palestinians.” Other references to denial
through the Palestinian issue included excerpts on the Adelaide Institute
website of what Toben described as the Palestinians equivalent to the
story of Anne Frank.
132
Australian collaboration over Holocaust denial with Middle
Eastern regimes and organizations is consistent with trends
130
Australian Jewish News, 18 May 2001.
131
Australian Jewish News, 30 Mar. 2001.
132
www.adelaideinstitute.org, accessed 17 Aug. 2003.
Page 24
Danny Ben-Moshe
24
internationally. Ties to those involved in Middle Eastern denial has the
potential to introduce more extreme forms of antisemitism into
Australia. The late IHR founder David McCalden claimed Arab sources
provided initial financial support for the IHR,
133
and with their common
anti-Zionist and antisemitic agenda, Arab sources could be a source of
funds for otherwise underresourced deniers in Australia.
Ultimately, several deniers, such as Jurgen Graf, have made Iran
their home
134
and Toben has suggested that he may follow their lead. He
said in relation to Federal Court action arising from the Human Rights
and Equal Opportunity Commission finding against him, that he “would
apply for political refugee status in Iran if and when his condition of stay
in Australia becomes insecure.”
135
In the interim, Toben remains active
in the broad Middle Eastern anti-Zionist crusade, claiming to have
traveled to Jordan during the 2003 war in Iraq in an attempt to offer
himself as a human shield, telling an audience “The tragedy in Iraq
deflects from the Palestinian tragedy, and peace will only come to the
Middle East with the dismantling of the Zionist, apartheid, racist state of
Israel.”
136
The increasing prevalence of Holocaust denial in the Arab world
has the potential to increase support for Holocaust denial in Australia
from within the Islamic and Arabic communities as has occurred in
Europe and North America. Incidents of this nature have occurred in
Australia in the past.
137
This could lead to alliances between Islamic
extremists and the traditional far Right, a practice which is evident in
Europe and North America. In addition, with denial often related to
extreme and open forms of antisemitism in the Middle East these ties
may increase the extremist nature of denial amongst groups as the
League, ACLU, and Adelaide Institute in Australia. powderpuff answered on 12/23/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
20 Thousand people gassed to death a day at the height of the gas chamber atrocities of the holocaust...
I've never heard of any specific group of people who deny the Holocaust, but I have heard that there are such groups. I never even learned about it until I was an independent thinking adult!
I wish it never happened. When I learned of it, I'm still so horrified my mind becomes boggled almost immediately when I think about it, even now. It is the worst horror that I can think of in modern history.
As hard as it may be to think about and comprehend the massacre of the holocaust, >>>OFF THE CHARTS<<<, I think it is a very big mistake to deny that it happened.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Mary_Susan asked on 12/22/07 - WHY SHOULD CHRISTIANITY BE ABOVE CRITICISM All American institutions are subject to criticism....but some think that religion should be *ABOVE CRITICISM*. There is no reason why religion should be above criticism.
Why do you think Christianity should be above criticism? powderpuff answered on 12/23/07:Hello Mary Susan,
Christianity should not be above criticism! Critical observation is fair for anything worth thinking about, don't you think?
I hope you and Nick have a Very Merry Christmas and a healthy New Year!!
powderpuff
ps (for holly)
It is true, Mary Susan has criticized Mormonism many times. She is positive she does not believe in it, yet she is still friendly to Mormons :) | | Question/Answer | | paraclete asked on 12/23/07 - CHRISTMAS A HAPPY, HOLY CHRISTMAS
AND
A VERY PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR
TO EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU!
paraclete powderpuff answered on 12/23/07:Thanks paraclete,
I'm sending goodwill to all and hoping for peace on Answerway, at least for the holidays :)
Merry Christmas
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | revdauphinee asked on 12/23/07 - Just a thought Just wishing to to all answerway members a merry christmas and a great new year! powderpuff answered on 12/23/07:Hello revdauphinee,
Thank you, and a Very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 11/21/07 - Is this the right direction for the LDBC?
Waiting for Armageddon
By Kathryn Westcott
BBC News
Attempts are being stepped up in Russia to end a stand-off between the authorities and members of a doomsday religious group who have barricaded themselves inside a cave in a remote region and are threatening to blow themselves up.
Scene of the doomsday cult stand-off in southern Russia
Orthodox monks have been trying to reach the cave
Pressure is mounting on the authorities to act because of concerns for four children - one as young as 18 months old - who are among the 29 members of the splinter group of the Russian Orthodox Church.
The group retreated to the man-made cave in a wind-swept, snow-covered ravine in Penza, some 640km (400 miles) from Moscow, almost a month ago.
They said they would await the end of the world there, adding that they would kill themselves up if moves were made to force them from their hideout.
On Wednesday, it was reported that the group's leader, self-declared prophet Pyotr Kuznetsov - who did not go into hiding with his followers - had visited the site to try to win the release of the children.
The 43-year-old, who established his True Russian Orthodox Church after he split with the official Church about seven years ago, has been charged with setting up a religious organisation associated with violence.
The drama is the latest incident in the country's troubled relations with what the authorities describe as "cults" or "sects" but Western observers prefer to call "new religious movements".
Influx
Over the past decade, attempts have been made to restrict foreign or foreign-influenced groups.
Pyotr Kuznetsov
Cult leader Pyotr Kuznetsov is undergoing psychiatric examination
Post-communist Russia initially gave religious creeds free rein, sparking an influx of foreign evangelists and missionaries throughout the 1990s. Among them were Scientologists, Moonies, Krishna devotees and Jehovah's Witnesses.
Many claimed that Russia's moral fibre and even its national security were at at risk from such "destructive cults".
"In some cases, the so-called minority religions became the whipping boy. In the 1990s, there was a coming together of conservative forces, politicians and authorities within the Orthodox Church in a kind of campaign against foreign groups," says James T Richardson, an expert in new religious movements at the University of Nevada.
He told BBC News that this campaign was partly responsible for the introduction of a 1997 religion law, which enshrined Orthodox Christianity as the country's predominant religion. The law pledges respect for Buddhism, Islam and Judaism, which are called traditional religions, but places restrictions on other groups.
Sympathy
The Penza incident has prompted calls from some quarters for the authorities to act against such "home-grown" groups.
So far, however, there appears to have been sympathy for the Penza group from members of the Orthodox Church.
Monks and priests have scaled down ropes to try to coax the faithful out of their dug-out.
OLD BELIEVERS
In the 17th Century, the Old Believers broke away from the official Church in protest at reforms to Orthodox rituals
Many settled in extremely lonely communities and some committed mass suicides
One local priest, Father Georgy, in an interview with Russian television, described them as "ordinary Christians."
Marat Shterin, an expert in Russian religion at Kings College London, said, says: "The Russian Orthodox Church tends to be quite anti-sectarian, but on this occasion there seems to be a degree of understanding that while this manifestation of millenarian beliefs - belief that we live in 'the end time' - is extreme, some the group's views are shared by many within the Church."
He says that millenarian beliefs are fairly widespread in Russian Orthodoxy, both within the formal structures of the Church and outside it.
"What they all share is a sharply dualistic view of the world, according to which salvation in these end times is only possible within and through the Church, while the world outside is evil and doomed to imminent destruction.
"However, some of them feel that the official Church does not live up to its salvationist mission and they get attracted to new prophecies and prophets who claim the failing church is in itself a sign of the end of time."
'Evil'
Pyotr Kuznetsov declared himself a prophet several years ago, establishing his True Russian Orthodox Church after splitting with the official church.
An outdoor summer-time kitchen covered with snow belonging to the doomsday group in the village of Nikolskoye,
The group used to live in the in the village of Nikolskoye
According to one priest who has led prayers outside the dug-out, the group believes that "everything in the world is evil. Globalisation is evil".
It is not clear what the group's specific grievances are, but experts have highlighted other concerns held by local millenarian groups.
"In recent years there has been a whole movement within the Church that resisted the introduction of tax and individual identification numbers and new passports, seeing these as signs of 'satanic globalisation' and tribulations leading to the end of the world," says Dr Shterin.
But, he argues that while there are a number of such groups in Russia, it is dangerous to see them all as potential "doomsday cults".
He says that many are integrated in society and more concerned with "spiritual purification and trying to conquer evil by improving the world around them".
Others, he says, have taken a more "separationist" stance and moved to relatively remote areas, while still keeping some communication with wider society.
Violence rare
Estimates vary as to the number of new religious groups in Russia. According to Dr Shterin there are about 300 to 400 different new religious movements, or about 1,000 local communities allied to the larger movements. This, he says, includes "older groups" such as Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons.
One of the largest "home-grown" groups is the Church of the Last Testament in Siberia, which has some 5,000 followers. Its leader, a 46-year-old former traffic policeman, predicted that the world would end a few years ago, but the date passed without incident.
They could easily interpret any outside pressure as a sign of the 'end time persecution', therefore as the end of the world already unfolding
Dr Marat Shterin
Experts argue that while "end of time" beliefs are widespread around the world, it is rare that such groups engage in violence.
"There have only been about eight (violent) incidents in the past few decades," says Dr Richardson.
He also says that it is difficult to explain what exactly triggers such events.
"People who study these things have thrown up their hands and said that each situation has been so unique that it is impossible to tell what set it off.
"There are so many people that hold such beliefs but live normal lives. Somewhere, something significant happens - it could possibly be down to the way a group interacts with the authorities."
In the Penza case, it has been reported that Mr Kuznetsov told authorities that the local community had written in "some paper complaining that if we were not removed, they would complain to the authorities".
Dr Shterin stresses that the outcome depends very much on how the "wider society will react towards the group", which expects the world to end in May 2008.
"This is a very long time for a group with small children to survive in an artificial cave," he says.
"On the other hand, they could easily interpret any outside pressure as a sign of the 'end time persecution', therefore as the end of the world already unfolding."
===
Would the world be a better place if the LDBC and its 'expects' barricaded themselves in a cave?
powderpuff answered on 11/21/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
No, not really, I don't think so. At times people might have thoughts like wishing something similar for a tormentor, on second thought most would conclude that barricading themselves in a cave would not be good for anyone. *I hope.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | revdauphinee asked on 11/21/07 - happy Thanksgiving! just wanted to wish you all a happy thanksgiving !
Dorothy powderpuff answered on 11/21/07:Happy Thanksgiving revdauphinee! Try not to eat too much ;) | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 11/12/07 - Bible question for ALL Christians. Is the Bible to be believed literally? powderpuff answered on 11/12/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
Taken literally, the Bible could lead to dangerous behavior!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | JesseJamesDupree asked on 11/11/07 - Observations......................... As I near my 45th Birthday, I have discovered a few things about life. The older you get, the less you actually know, I cannot be absolutely sure about anything, and I am in no way, fit to stand in judgement of anyone. I have discovered God in a variety of places, and frankly I haven't found God too often in Church. Yes I go to Church every week to hear the sermons, but I am outside alot in my occupation, and I find God much more dramatically in the nature around us. I live in the "Ohio Valley", right on the banks of the Mighty Ohio River. One morning as I was out making my rounds, I looked out upon the Ohio, as i was quite a bit above it on some hilly terrain, and about a mile away it took a nice graceful bend, and the waters were a very dark shade of blue, and the hillsides surrounding it were alive with the colors of fall. it would have made a great picturepostcard. I also thought of the Bible where it said "Be still and know I am God", right there I could believe it. I cannot live a sinless life. I tried and failed. So I try my best, raise my kids and try to be a positive influence to everyone. So far I have pretty much secured all three. I hope this pleases God enought to let me in the "Pearly Gates". If not then I suppose I will deal with that when the time comes. Oh well, enuff "waxin' philosophical" with y'all, I got hell to raise!!:) powderpuff answered on 11/11/07:Hello JesseJamesDupree,
It is pretty down there on the river isn't it! I too am outside a lot just because I love the outdoors :)
You are not alone. No one can live and not make mistakes. The trick is to not let those mistakes, slips, or sins get the better of you. Continue to grow and keep on trying till the end and you should be ok.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 11/10/07 - JST - a simple search [produces ......................................... From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
:
The Bible in English +/-
Old English (pre-1066)
Middle English (1066-1500)
Early Modern English (1500-1800)
Modern Christian (1800-)
Modern Jewish (1853-)
The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, also called the Inspired Version of the Bible or the JST, is a version of the Bible dictated by Joseph Smith, Jr. The work is the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) with some significant additions, clarifications, and revisions.
It is a sacred text in Mormonism, and part of the canon of the Community of Christ (formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). .
Doubters might get clue from this that I do know what I am talking about when the subject is Christianity and Mormonism.
Some people!
powderpuff answered on 11/10/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
After over 23 years membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints otherwise known as "Mormons", I have yet to see anyone of us (Mormons) in possession of or use of the JST of the Bible (sometimes called the "Mormon Bible") used by the Community of Christ.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | JesseJamesDupree asked on 11/10/07 - The problem with "Organized Religion" is............ ????????;) powderpuff answered on 11/10/07:Hello JesseJamesDupree,
The problem with Orgainzed Religion is....
um,
People tell you what to believe
People who [think they] know what you believe tell you things you didn't know you believe
People will fight about what they believe you believe: arguing unimportant doctrinal differences, losing sight of the important things of which most reasonable people would agree
Orgainized religion creates division
Orgainized religion is contrary to the comforts of those who thrive with their own methods of understanding
Orgainized religion often disrespects those who can achieve good morality without religion
AND, probably a lot of other things I haven't thought of
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 11/10/07 - Was it Satan of God that said .... "Now is the man become as one of us, to know good and evil"?
Who was it that said that? Was it:
A: Satan, or
B: God.
Help available at Genesis 3.22a.
Ronnie
powderpuff answered on 11/10/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
B.
It is clearly indicated in the Bible that God said: "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"
What is meant by "man is become as one of us" is not agreed upon by all who read the Bible.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | JimDandy asked on 11/06/07 - The real history of the Crusades Read and tell me if you agree or disagree with the professor, and I'd really like to know why or why you don't.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Real History of the Crusades
The crusades are quite possibly the most misunderstood event in European history. Most of what passes for public knowledge about it is either misleading or just plain wrong
By Prof. Thomas F. Madden
Misconceptions about the Crusades are all too common. The Crusades are generally portrayed as a series of holy wars against Islam led by power-mad popes and fought by religious fanatics. They are supposed to have been the epitome of self-righteousness and intolerance, a black stain on the history of the Catholic Church in particular and Western civilization in general. A breed of proto-imperialists, the Crusaders introduced Western aggression to the peaceful Middle East and then deformed the enlightened Muslim culture, leaving it in ruins. For variations on this theme, one need not look far. See, for example, Steven Runciman's famous three-volume epic, History of the Crusades, or the BBC/A&E documentary, The Crusades, hosted by Terry Jones. Both are terrible history yet wonderfully entertaining.
So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.
From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the Crusades. Religion, after all, is nothing to fight wars over.
Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.
With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed's death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.
That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.
Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne'er-do-wells who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. The Crusaders' expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love for God were obviously not to be taken seriously. They were only a front for darker designs.
At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.
During the past two decades, computer-assisted charter studies have demolished that contrivance. Scholars have discovered that crusading knights were generally wealthy men with plenty of their own land in Europe. Nevertheless, they willingly gave up everything to undertake the holy mission. Crusading was not cheap. Even wealthy lords could easily impoverish themselves and their families by joining a Crusade. They did so not because they expected material wealth (which many of them had already) but because they hoped to store up treasure where rust and moth could not corrupt. They were keenly aware of their sinfulness and eager to undertake the hardships of the Crusade as a penitential act of charity and love. Europe is littered with thousands of medieval charters attesting to these sentiments, charters in which these men still speak to us today if we will listen. Of course, they were not opposed to capturing booty if it could be had. But the truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for plunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.
Urban II gave the Crusaders two goals, both of which would remain central to the eastern Crusades for centuries. The first was to rescue the Christians of the East. As his successor, Pope Innocent III, later wrote:
How does a man love according to divine precept his neighbor as himself when, knowing that his Christian brothers in faith and in name are held by the perfidious Muslims in strict confinement and weighed down by the yoke of heaviest servitude, he does not devote himself to the task of freeing them? ...Is it by chance that you do not know that many thousands of Christians are bound in slavery and imprisoned by the Muslims, tortured with innumerable torments?
"Crusading," Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith has rightly argued, was understood as an "an act of love"—in this case, the love of one's neighbor. The Crusade was seen as an errand of mercy to right a terrible wrong. As Pope Innocent III wrote to the Knights Templar, "You carry out in deeds the words of the Gospel, 'Greater love than this hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friends.'"
The second goal was the liberation of Jerusalem and the other places made holy by the life of Christ. The word crusade is modern. Medieval Crusaders saw themselves as pilgrims, performing acts of righteousness on their way to the Holy Sepulcher. The Crusade indulgence they received was canonically related to the pilgrimage indulgence. This goal was frequently described in feudal terms. When calling the Fifth Crusade in 1215, Innocent III wrote:
Consider most dear sons, consider carefully that if any temporal king was thrown out of his domain and perhaps captured, would he not, when he was restored to his pristine liberty and the time had come for dispensing justice look on his vassals as unfaithful and traitors...unless they had committed not only their property but also their persons to the task of freeing him? ...And similarly will not Jesus Christ, the king of kings and lord of lords, whose servant you cannot deny being, who joined your soul to your body, who redeemed you with the Precious Blood...condemn you for the vice of ingratitude and the crime of infidelity if you neglect to help Him?
The reconquest of Jerusalem, therefore, was not colonialism but an act of restoration and an open declaration of one's love of God. Medieval men knew, of course, that God had the power to restore Jerusalem Himself—indeed, He had the power to restore the whole world to His rule. Yet as St. Bernard of Clairvaux preached, His refusal to do so was a blessing to His people:
Again I say, consider the Almighty's goodness and pay heed to His plans of mercy. He puts Himself under obligation to you, or rather feigns to do so, that He can help you to satisfy your obligations toward Himself.... I call blessed the generation that can seize an opportunity of such rich indulgence as this.
It is often assumed that the central goal of the Crusades was forced conversion of the Muslim world. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the perspective of medieval Christians, Muslims were the enemies of Christ and His Church. It was the Crusaders' task to defeat and defend against them. That was all. Muslims who lived in Crusader-won territories were generally allowed to retain their property and livelihood, and always their religion. Indeed, throughout the history of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, Muslim inhabitants far outnumbered the Catholics. It was not until the 13th century that the Franciscans began conversion efforts among Muslims. But these were mostly unsuccessful and finally abandoned. In any case, such efforts were by peaceful persuasion, not the threat of violence.
Like all warfare, the violence was brutal (although not as brutal as modern wars). There were mishaps, blunders, and crimes.
The Crusades were wars, so it would be a mistake to characterize them as nothing but piety and good intentions. Like all warfare, the violence was brutal (although not as brutal as modern wars). There were mishaps, blunders, and crimes. These are usually well-remembered today. During the early days of the First Crusade in 1095, a ragtag band of Crusaders led by Count Emicho of Leiningen made its way down the Rhine, robbing and murdering all the Jews they could find. Without success, the local bishops attempted to stop the carnage. In the eyes of these warriors, the Jews, like the Muslims, were the enemies of Christ. Plundering and killing them, then, was no vice. Indeed, they believed it was a righteous deed, since the Jews' money could be used to fund the Crusade to Jerusalem. But they were wrong, and the Church strongly condemned the anti-Jewish attacks.
Fifty years later, when the Second Crusade was gearing up, St. Bernard frequently preached that the Jews were not to be persecuted:
Ask anyone who knows the Sacred Scriptures what he finds foretold of the Jews in the Psalm. "Not for their destruction do I pray," it says. The Jews are for us the living words of Scripture, for they remind us always of what our Lord suffered.... Under Christian princes they endure a hard captivity, but "they only wait for the time of their deliverance."
Nevertheless, a fellow Cistercian monk named Radulf stirred up people against the Rhineland Jews, despite numerous letters from Bernard demanding that he stop. At last Bernard was forced to travel to Germany himself, where he caught up with Radulf, sent him back to his convent, and ended the massacres.
It is often said that the roots of the Holocaust can be seen in these medieval pogroms. That may be. But if so, those roots are far deeper and more widespread than the Crusades. Jews perished during the Crusades, but the purpose of the Crusades was not to kill Jews. Quite the contrary: Popes, bishops, and preachers made it clear that the Jews of Europe were to be left unmolested. In a modern war, we call tragic deaths like these "collateral damage." Even with smart technologies, the United States has killed far more innocents in our wars than the Crusaders ever could. But no one would seriously argue that the purpose of American wars is to kill women and children.
By any reckoning, the First Crusade was a long shot. There was no leader, no chain of command, no supply lines, no detailed strategy. It was simply thousands of warriors marching deep into enemy territory, committed to a common cause. Many of them died, either in battle or through disease or starvation. It was a rough campaign, one that seemed always on the brink of disaster. Yet it was miraculously successful. By 1098, the Crusaders had restored Nicaea and Antioch to Christian rule. In July 1099, they conquered Jerusalem and began to build a Christian state in Palestine. The joy in Europe was unbridled. It seemed that the tide of history, which had lifted the Muslims to such heights, was now turning.
***
But it was not. When we think about the Middle Ages, it is easy to view Europe in light of what it became rather than what it was. The colossus of the medieval world was Islam, not Christendom. The Crusades are interesting largely because they were an attempt to counter that trend. But in five centuries of crusading, it was only the First Crusade that significantly rolled back the military progress of Islam. It was downhill from there.
When the Crusader County of Edessa fell to the Turks and Kurds in 1144, there was an enormous groundswell of support for a new Crusade in Europe. It was led by two kings, Louis VII of France and Conrad III of Germany, and preached by St. Bernard himself. It failed miserably. Most of the Crusaders were killed along the way. Those who made it to Jerusalem only made things worse by attacking Muslim Damascus, which formerly had been a strong ally of the Christians. In the wake of such a disaster, Christians across Europe were forced to accept not only the continued growth of Muslim power but the certainty that God was punishing the West for its sins. Lay piety movements sprouted up throughout Europe, all rooted in the desire to purify Christian society so that it might be worthy of victory in the East.
Crusading in the late twelfth century, therefore, became a total war effort. Every person, no matter how weak or poor, was called to help. Warriors were asked to sacrifice their wealth and, if need be, their lives for the defense of the Christian East. On the home front, all Christians were called to support the Crusades through prayer, fasting, and alms. Yet still the Muslims grew in strength. Saladin, the great unifier, had forged the Muslim Near East into a single entity, all the while preaching jihad against the Christians. In 1187 at the Battle of Hattin, his forces wiped out the combined armies of the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem and captured the precious relic of the True Cross. Defenseless, the Christian cities began surrendering one by one, culminating in the surrender of Jerusalem on October 2. Only a tiny handful of ports held out.
The response was the Third Crusade. It was led by Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa of the German Empire, King Philip II Augustus of France, and King Richard I Lionheart of England. By any measure it was a grand affair, although not quite as grand as the Christians had hoped. The aged Frederick drowned while crossing a river on horseback, so his army returned home before reaching the Holy Land. Philip and Richard came by boat, but their incessant bickering only added to an already divisive situation on the ground in Palestine. After recapturing Acre, the king of France went home, where he busied himself carving up Richard's French holdings. The Crusade, therefore, fell into Richard's lap. A skilled warrior, gifted leader, and superb tactician, Richard led the Christian forces to victory after victory, eventually reconquering the entire coast. But Jerusalem was not on the coast, and after two abortive attempts to secure supply lines to the Holy City, Richard at last gave up. Promising to return one day, he struck a truce with Saladin that ensured peace in the region and free access to Jerusalem for unarmed pilgrims. But it was a bitter pill to swallow. The desire to restore Jerusalem to Christian rule and regain the True Cross remained intense throughout Europe.
The Crusades of the 13th century were larger, better funded, and better organized. But they too failed. The Fourth Crusade (1201-1204) ran aground when it was seduced into a web of Byzantine politics, which the Westerners never fully understood. They had made a detour to Constantinople to support an imperial claimant who promised great rewards and support for the Holy Land. Yet once he was on the throne of the Caesars, their benefactor found that he could not pay what he had promised. Thus betrayed by their Greek friends, in 1204 the Crusaders attacked, captured, and brutally sacked Constantinople, the greatest Christian city in the world. Pope Innocent III, who had previously excommunicated the entire Crusade, strongly denounced the Crusaders. But there was little else he could do. The tragic events of 1204 closed an iron door between Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox, a door that even today Pope John Paul II has been unable to reopen. It is a terrible irony that the Crusades, which were a direct result of the Catholic desire to rescue the Orthodox people, drove the two further—and perhaps irrevocably—apart.
The remainder of the 13th century's Crusades did little better. The Fifth Crusade (1217-1221) managed briefly to capture Damietta in Egypt, but the Muslims eventually defeated the army and reoccupied the city. St. Louis IX of France led two Crusades in his life. The first also captured Damietta, but Louis was quickly outwitted by the Egyptians and forced to abandon the city. Although Louis was in the Holy Land for several years, spending freely on defensive works, he never achieved his fondest wish: to free Jerusalem. He was a much older man in 1270 when he led another Crusade to Tunis, where he died of a disease that ravaged the camp. After St. Louis's death, the ruthless Muslim leaders, Baybars andKalavun, waged a brutal jihad against the Christians in Palestine. By 1291, the Muslim forces had succeeded in killing or ejecting the last of the Crusaders, thus erasing the Crusader kingdom from the map. Despite numerous attempts and many more plans, Christian forces were never again able to gain a foothold in the region until the 19th century.
Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts.
One might think that three centuries of Christian defeats would have soured Europeans on the idea of Crusade. Not at all. In one sense, they had little alternative. Muslim kingdoms were becoming more, not less, powerful in the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries. The Ottoman Turks conquered not only their fellow Muslims, thus further unifying Islam, but also continued to press westward, capturing Constantinople and plunging deep into Europe itself. By the 15th century, the Crusades were no longer errands of mercy for a distant people but desperate attempts of one of the last remnants of Christendom to survive. Europeans began to ponder the real possibility that Islam would finally achieve its aim of conquering the entire Christian world. One of the great best-sellers of the time, Sebastian Brant's The Ship of Fools, gave voice to this sentiment in a chapter titled "Of the Decline of the Faith":
Our faith was strong in th' Orient,
It ruled in all of Asia,
In Moorish lands and Africa.
But now for us these lands are gone
'Twould even grieve the hardest stone....
Four sisters of our Church you find,
They're of the patriarchic kind:
Constantinople, Alexandria,
Jerusalem, Antiochia.
But they've been forfeited and sacked
And soon the head will be attacked.
Of course, that is not what happened. But it very nearly did. In 1480, Sultan Mehmed II captured Otranto as a beachhead for his invasion of Italy. Rome was evacuated. Yet the sultan died shortly thereafter, and his plan died with him. In 1529, Suleiman the Magnificent laid siege to Vienna. If not for a run of freak rainstorms that delayed his progress and forced him to leave behind much of his artillery, it is virtually certain that the Turks would have taken the city. Germany, then, would have been at their mercy. [At that point crusades were no longer waged to rescue Jerusalem, but Europe itself.]
Yet, even while these close shaves were taking place, something else was brewing in Europe—something unprecedented in human history. The Renaissance, born from a strange mixture of Roman values, medieval piety, and a unique respect for commerce and entrepreneurialism, had led to other movements like humanism, the Scientific Revolution, and the Age of Exploration. Even while fighting for its life, Europe was preparing to expand on a global scale. The Protestant Reformation, which rejected the papacy and the doctrine of indulgence, made Crusades unthinkable for many Europeans, thus leaving the fighting to the Catholics. In 1571, a Holy League, which was itself a Crusade, defeated the Ottoman fleet at Lepanto. Yet military victories like that remained rare. The Muslim threat was neutralized economically. As Europe grew in wealth and power, the once awesome and sophisticated Turks began to seem backward and pathetic—no longer worth a Crusade. The "Sick Man of Europe" limped along until the 20th century, when he finally expired, leaving behind the present mess of the modern Middle East.
From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the Crusades. Religion, after all, is nothing to fight wars over. But we should be mindful that our medieval ancestors would have been equally disgusted by our infinitely more destructive wars fought in the name of political ideologies. And yet, both the medieval and the modern soldier fight ultimately for their own world and all that makes it up. Both are willing to suffer enormous sacrifice, provided that it is in the service of something they hold dear, something greater than themselves. Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts. The ancient faith of Christianity, with its respect for women and antipathy toward slavery, not only survived but flourished. Without the Crusades, it might well have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam's rivals, into extinction.
Thomas F. Madden is associate professor and chair of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. He is the author of numerous works, including The New Concise History of the Crusades, and co-author, with Donald Queller, of The Fourth Crusade: The Conquest of Constantinople. This special version for the ARMA was reprinted by permission of Crisis Magazine, www.crisismagazine.com.
End note: Regarding the modern day reference to the crusades as a supposed grievance by Islamic militants still upset over them, Madden notes: “If the Muslims won the crusades (and they did), why the anger now? Shouldn't they celebrate the crusades as a great victory? Until the nineteenth century that is precisely what they did. It was the West that taught the Middle East to hate the crusades. During the peak of European colonialism, historians began extolling the medieval crusades as Europe's first colonial venture. By the 20th century, when imperialism was discredited, so too were the crusades. They haven't been the same since.” He adds, “The truth is that the crusades had nothing to do with colonialism or unprovoked aggression. They were a desperate and largely unsuccessful attempt to defend against a powerful enemy.” “The entire history of the crusades is one of Western reaction to Muslim advances,” Madden observes.
Commenting on the recent scholarship of Oxford historian Christopher Tyerman in his recent, Fighting for Christendom: Holy War and the Crusades (Oxford, 2005), Professor Steven Ozment of Harvard writes how Tyerman: “maintains that the four centuries of holy war known as the Crusades are both the best recognized and most distorted part of the Christian Middle Ages. He faults scholars, pundits, and laymen on both sides of the East-West divide for allowing the memory of the Crusades to be ‘woven into intractable modern political problems,’ where it ‘blurs fantasy and scholarship’ and exacerbates present-day hatreds.” Ozment notes how Tyerman also views “the Crusades as neither an attempt at Western hegemony, nor a betrayal of Western Christian teaching and practice.” As Tyerman explains, the warriors who answered the pope’s call to aid Christendom in the Holy Land were known as crucesignati, “those signed with the cross.” Professor Tyerman considers the Crusades to have largely been “warfare decked out in moral and religious terms” and describes them as “the ultimate manifestation of conviction politics.” He points out the Crusades were indeed “butchery” with massacres of Jews Muslims and Jews, and that even among their contemporaries, crusaders had mixed reputations as “chivalric heroes and gilded thugs.” However, as Ozment observes, Tyerman adds that rather “than simple realpolitik and self-aggrandizement, the guiding ideology of crusading was that of religious self-sacrifice and revival, and directly modeled on the Sacrament of Penance.” See: Steven Ozment’s “Fighting the Infidel: the East-West holy wars are not just history” at: www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0RMQ/is_40_10/ai_n147918
27.
Whereas as support for the crusades was far from universal within Christendom, in contrast Medieval Muslim expansion through the military conquest of jihad as dictated by the Koran was directly supported by Islamic scholars, who provided a spiritual imperative for violence. For example, Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 1328), who wrote: “Since lawful warfare is essentially jihad and since its aim is that the religion is God’s entirely and God’s word is uppermost, therefore according to all Muslims, those who stand in the way of this aim must be fought.” And by Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406), who declared, “In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the [Muslim] mission and [the obligation to] convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.” (See: Robert Conquest’s, Reflections on a RavagedCentury, reviewed at: http://victorhanson.com/articles/thornton100406.html).
Classical scholar, historian, and commentator, Victor David Hanson, reviewing Christopher Tyerman’s recent 1,000-page history of the Crusades, God’s War (Belknap Press 2006), notes how Tyerman is careful beforehand to declare the political neutrality of his work: “This study is intended as a history, not a polemic, an account not a judgment…not a confessional apologia or a witness statement in some cosmic law suit.” Tyerman’s history then points out, as Hanson then succinctly summarizes, that “it was not merely glory or money or excitement that drove Westerners of all classes and nationalities to risk their lives in a deadly journey to an inhospitable east, but rather a real belief in a living God and their own desire to please him through preserving and honoring the birth and death places of his son.” For the crusaders, religious “belief governed almost every aspect of their lives and decision-making. The Crusades arose when the Church, in the absence of strong secular governments, had the moral authority to ignite the religious sense of thousands of Europeans—and they ceased when at last it lost such stature.” Noting the widespread ignorance of the true history this subject among most modern Westerners, Hanson comments on how absent “is any historical reminder that an ascendant Islam of the Middle Ages was concurrently occupying the Iberian peninsula — only after failing at Poitiers in the eighth century to take France. Greek-speaking Byzantium was under constant Islamic assault that would culminate in the Muslim occupation of much of the European Balkans and later Islamic armies at the gates of Vienna. Few remember that the Eastern Mediterranean coastal lands had been originally Phoenician and Jewish, then Persian, then Macedonian, then Roman, then Byzantine—and not until the seventh-century Islamic. Instead, whether intentionally or not, post-Enlightenment Westerners have accepted [Osama] bin Laden’s frame of reference that religiously intolerant Crusaders had gratuitously started a war to take something that was not theirs.” (See: http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson032107.html)
*For further material echoing this piece see
Proffessor Christopher Tyerman on the crusades: NPR interview here and audio transcript here. powderpuff answered on 11/06/07:Hello JimDandy,
I neither agree or disagree. Interesting read though, thanks.
powderpuff
ps, the reason: I wasn't there and I've only developed an interest for history in the latter half of my life.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Fritzella asked on 09/24/07 - Any Christians Praying Their Team Makes the Playoffs?? Any prayers to God for the benefit of your special baseball team, board members? Ronnie, Hank, (Tomder's is in), Mary Sue-the atheist, and others?????? CeeBee's from Chicagoland, but I don't know if she's a baseball fan.
What is your prayer?
Mary Sue as Fritzella
Since I'm Mary Sue-atheist, I'm just saying **GO CUBS**. :D
"Magic Number" is 4 powderpuff answered on 09/25/07:Hello Fritzella,
Nah, none here :)
But, I've been missing you! Sure hope you are doing ok and hanging in there!!!
Wishing you and Nick all the best in health and comforts :)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Liz22 asked on 09/24/07 - Christian or Not? There has been a lot of talk about who and who not true Christians on here.
The Bible can answer what a True Christian and a Christ like person is really like.
There are some TV Evangelist whom say they are of God, although the Scriptures say different.
Mt 23:2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:
Mt 23:3 all things therefore whatsoever they bid you, [these] do and observe: but do not ye after their works; for they say, and do not.
Mt 23:4 Yea, they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men`s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger.
Mt 23:5 But all their works they do to be seen of men: for they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders [of their garments],
Mt 23:6 and love the chief place at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
True Christians have the one true thing in commen and that is love, among each other.
They are also Peace makers, against all wars. Never calling other people names, or bragging about how much money they have. Or letting their right hand know, what their left hand is doing, or blowing a trumpet as many Churches do.
There are so many other way's to see a good Christian, it is like looking at a fruit tree, and seeing if that tree can produce good or bad fruit.
What ways can you tell a good Christian a part from others?
Thank you experts.
powderpuff answered on 09/25/07:Hello Liz22,
The Bible is a book and cannot speak. It consists of pages of paper with words printed on them bound together with a cover. When people say that the Bible "answers questions", "speaks", or "says" this or that, what they really mean, usually, is that this is what they understand the words printed in the Bible to mean.
Knowing ahead of time that people cannot possibly know all things makes it easier not to rush forward and try to judge whether or not someone else who also claims Christianity as their religion is, in fact, a Christian or just a poser!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Tempus-Omnia-Revelat asked on 09/25/07 - Reactions to hide, hide, hide ................................
You can post your reaction here.
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Trump says Bush should go into 'hiding'
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Donald Trump has some advice for President Bush if he wants a Republican to win the White House
Donald Trump says President Bush should "go into a corner and hide."
The business mogul and vocal critic of the Bush administration told CNN's Wolf Blitzer on Monday that he thinks the president is a "huge liability" for any Republican seeking the White House. Trump went on to say the best thing Bush can do for his party is to go into hiding.
"I think President Bush has to go into a corner and hide if a Republican is going to get elected," he said. "There is no way he is an asset. He is a huge liability, and he is going to have to do a big, big hiding act if a Republican is going to win."
Once a Republican nominee is determined, Trump added, Bush "should just go into a corner and say 'OK, that's it. I am finished. It's over.' " Video Watch Trump say Bush must do a huge 'hiding act' »
Trump also reiterated his comments to CNN in March that Bush is probably the worst president in American history, saying, "We've gone from this tremendous power that was respected all over the world to somewhat of a laughingstock."
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powderpuff answered on 09/25/07:Hello Tempus-Omnia-Revelat,
Many people in this country think Donald Trump is just an ordinary fellow with ordinary rights to express his ordinary opinions.
In this case, I would tend to agree with him.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | peddler2 asked on 09/25/07 - Earth to Perv-Break 18 for a reality check please? Dear Perverticles:
Know that I have set the bones I broke when I fell off the front porch laughing at your latest guffaw I have news for you. There is no such thing as "natural evolution" .
Why do continue to make an ass of yourself trying to pretend you understand science or have a clue what the theory of evolution is? It seems that your statement that Darwin did not teach we came from monkeys was enough of an embarrassment. But no, now you have added Pasteur working with antibiotics even though he was long since dead when they were discovered. And now you claim the absurdity that atheistic evolution does not include spontaneous generation and that there is a process no one else but you seems to know about called natural evolution.
Please describe this process. Do feces throwing monkeys naturally turn into Catholics? What causes this to happen? Tell us how it works.
Enquiring minds want to know.
powderpuff answered on 09/25/07:Hello peddler2,
You ask "Perverticles" why he continues to make such an "ass" of himself.... and then go off on a tangent. What I'd like to know is why a Christian would continue to display unChristian remarks and attitudes to others when this is clearly against the true theme of Christianity? Where in your Bible does it say that demeaning others, calling them names, swearing and talking about feces throwing is the correct way to spread the good news?
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | peddler2 asked on 09/25/07 - Challenge to "Christian" evolutionist. Where in the Bible does it teach evolution and not creation? If you have to ignore the Bible and even the words of Jesus Christ to believe something is that not humanism? Man decides truth?
My Bible teaches creation.
Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Psa 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as a heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
Psa 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
Psa 33:9 For he spoke, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods. In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also. The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land. O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker. (Psalm 95:3-6)
Bless the Lord, O my soul! O Lord my God, thou art very great! Thou art clothed with honour and majesty. … Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: He maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind. … Thou best set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
V. 10. He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills. …
V. 13-14. He watereth the hills from his chambers:
The earth is satisfied with fruit of thy works. He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; …
V. 19-20. He appointed the moon for seasons: The sun knoweth his going down. Thou makest darkness, and it is night; …
V. 24. O Lord, how manifold are thy works! In wisdom host thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.
Romans 1:20, ‘For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even by his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.’
Isaiah 45:18-‘For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.’
Psa 19:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork.
Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge.
Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
powderpuff answered on 09/25/07:Hello peddler2,
The Bible was written by people long before modern science had the abilities to look very deep for hints of how things in this world and cosmos began and work.. -and continue to change. It was written by men who wrote about spirituality not science.
Science is only a faith buster for those who are weak in their faith or lack faith all together. For those who are solid in their faith, science is not a threat. Many are comfortable with science and see it as adding to their faith rather than taking away from it.
Does it say anywhere in the Bible that science and scientific knowledge is a betrayal to God or that we must stay away from science and don't believe the things science discovers?
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | CeeBee2 asked on 07/10/07 - Hospital alert!------------------------------------ Mary Sue has been in a local hospital since Sunday. I talked with her briefly by phone. She is undergoing tests to find out what is causing breathing problems. Nick is desolate. Doris is caring for him meanwhile. powderpuff answered on 07/11/07:Hello CeeBee,
Thanks for posting! Please give Mary Sue all my best!! Its nice to have a friend like Doris who knows Nick and could take care of him for her :)
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 07/02/07 - Mitt's LDS roots run deep
Mitt's LDS roots run deep
By Michael Kranish and Michael Paulson
Boston Globe
The series
» Series link — Special report from The Boston Globe
NANTES, France — Elder Romney didn't even have time to put on his shoes.
The 19-year-old missionary was in his apartment when a woman burst in to say some Frenchmen were beating up one of his fellow Mormons down the street.
The barefoot Mitt Romney, who had been in France for just six months, joined his roommates in rushing into the snowy night.
They found a team of rugby players, drowning their sorrows after a lost match, hassling two female missionaries. The women had cried out "Allez-y!" which means "go on," rather than "Allez-vous en," meaning "go away." The male missionary who leapt to their defense had been punched out. Romney ended up with a badly bruised jaw.
"There were about 20 guys, very large and very muscular, and we were a group of very young and very small American guys," Romney would recall 40 years later. "If you get into a fight with Muhammad Ali, you don't return the punch, you just put your arms up."
In a lifetime of good fortune, the January 1967 rumble in Nantes stands out as a rare moment of defeat. But as a snapshot of his 30 months as an LDS missionary, it is less exceptional: His time in France posed one of the great challenges of his life. It was marked by frustration and, ultimately, tragedy. The victories were visible only in hindsight.
Day after day, he knocked on doors urging people, most of them Catholic but many of them hostile to religion and often to the United States as well, to join The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Mormonism was a religion of mystery to most French people, recognized mostly for its history of polygamy and, in a country that takes its wine seriously, for its prohibition against alcohol.
Mitt Romney, March 21, 1969.
Mitt Romney, March 21, 1969.
Serving as a missionary was an LDS tradition. From the very start, in the 1830s, the Latter-day Saints had sent out missionaries to preach the gospel.
"Your presiding officers have recommended you as one worthy to represent the Church of our Lord as a Minister of the Gospel," said the letter sent to missionaries in 1966 by David O. McKay, who as church president was revered as a living prophet by Mormons.
For 2 1/2 years, Romney would wear the dark suits and white shirts of an LDS missionary. He would be allowed to call home only on Christmas and Mother's Day. There would be no drinking, no smoking, no sex and no dating. He would be alone only in the bathroom — Mormon missionaries are paired always with a companion to reduce the opportunity for mischief. All of his time, all of his energy, would be devoted to trying to persuade the people of France to join the LDS Church.
France was, of course, glamorous and beautiful, and the missionaries had half a day off each week for "diversions," which often meant a chance to visit a chateau. But France was also one of the most inhospitable countries to Mormonism.
The first Mormon missionary had arrived in 1849, but the missionaries had been evicted during the reign of Napoleon III and fled again during World War II. By the time Romney arrived, there were just 6,500 LDS Church members in the entire country.
"Being in a foreign place in a foreign language with a foreign faith, you really do a lot of soul-searching about what you believe and what you're going to do with the rest of your life," Romney would recall decades later.
Romney said he found inspiration in the story of a Utah chemist, Henry Eyring, who, hobbled by cancer, nonetheless struggled to help his church weed an onion patch, only to learn that the row he had worked on didn't need weeding. Eyring, as Romney tells the story, responded, "Well, that's OK, I didn't come here for the onions."
"He came to respond to the call of service," Romney said, "and I think that's what happens to young men or young women who go on a mission."
LDS roots
Romney's family history is intertwined with that of the LDS Church. The Romneys came from the English village of Dalton-in-Furness, about 280 miles northwest of London, and immigrated to America in response to the same kind of missionary work that Mitt would perform.
George Romney and his mother Anna Romney in Mexico, 1908. (Deseret Morning News Archives)
Deseret Morning News Archives
George Romney and his mother Anna Romney in Mexico, 1908.
Mormonism was in its infancy in 1837 when the Romney family, headed by a carpenter named Miles Archibald Romney, heard a missionary speak near their home about the story of the religion's founder and prophet, Joseph Smith.
Born in the little village of Sharon, Vt., Smith was praying in the woods of western New York when, according to his account, he saw "a pillar of light exactly over my head." Two personages, God and Jesus, appeared before him, telling him that other churches "were all wrong." Several years later, in the same woods, the angel Moroni appeared to him, directing him to a set of golden plates on which was recorded the history of an Israelite tribe that migrated to America and became the ancestors of the Native Americans.
The Romneys were so moved by the missionary's story that they were baptized as Mormons and, in 1841, they journeyed to Nauvoo, Ill., where Smith had established a Mormon community. On Aug. 18, 1843, the Romneys had a son named Miles Park Romney, the great-grandfather of Mitt Romney.
A year later, Smith was assassinated and the Mormons were driven out of Nauvoo, headed for a new promised land of Utah.
The Mormons believed that the great mountains of the West would protect them from persecution and from hostility toward polygamy. Mormon men had begun taking "plural wives" after Smith said God told him to revive the Old Testament practice of polygamy.
When Miles Park Romney turned 18, he followed instructions from Mormon leader Brigham Young that he find a wife. On May 10, 1862, Miles married a woman who would eventually bear him 10 children, Hannah Hood Hill. One month later, with Hannah pregnant, Miles left to perform church missionary duties in England for nearly 3 years.
An addition to Brigham Young's St. George home was built by Mitt Romney's great-grandfather. (Deseret Morning News Archives)
Deseret Morning News Archives
An addition to Brigham Young's St. George home was built by Mitt Romney's great-grandfather.
Two months after the marriage, on July 8, 1862, President Abraham Lincoln signed an antibigamy act, which prohibited polygamy in Utah and the other territories. Miles believed strongly in the church's practices and was committed to his mission to bring converts to America. He laid out his beliefs in England in an article titled "Persecution."
"Many, now, wonder why it is that we are so despised," Miles wrote. But Miles stood by his faith, writing that "from the earliest ages of the history of man, Truth and those who strictly adhere to its principles have been unpopular."
Miles returned to Utah in October 1865, meeting his 2-year-old daughter for the first time. The family was poor, possessing a small cook stove, a bed, three chairs and a small table. Miles, a carpenter, bought land and built a two-room wooden house. Hannah became pregnant again, and a second daughter was born.
"We were happy," Hannah recalled, in an autobiography written for her family when she was 80 years old. "We had two sweet little girls to bless our home and make it more happy and they bound us together in love and union."
Addition to marriage
It was then, in 1867, that Miles P. Romney had a fateful meeting with Young.
"Brother Miles P., I want you to take another wife," Young requested, according to Hannah's autobiography.
Miles faced the choice of obeying U.S. law, under which polygamy was illegal, or the head of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He chose the church.
Hannah was distraught.
"I felt that was more than I could endure, to have him divide his time and affections," Hannah wrote later. "I She "used to walk the floor and shed tears of sorrow. If anything will make a woman's heart ache, it is for her husband to take another wife, but I put my trust in my Heavenly Father and prayed and pleaded with him to give me strength to bear this great trial."
Then Hannah performed her duty: She prepared a room for her husband's new wife, Caroline Lambourne. Hannah wrote, "I was able to live in the principle of polygamy and give my husband many wives." But her despair deepened when her younger daughter died at 10 months.
Soon, Young gave Miles and his two wives a new mission: Sell your home, and move to the southern Utah town of St. George. The new settlement about 300 miles south of Salt Lake was in a vast desert, surrounded by red-toned ridges in a region where summer temperatures often topped 100 degrees.
Young prophesied that, "There will yet be built between these volcanic ridges, a city, with spires and towers and steeples, with homes containing many inhabitants." The Romneys sold their Salt Lake City home and moved to St. George, where they lived "in a little shanty, a small board room and a wagon box," Hannah wrote.
From the shanty, the Romneys wrote themselves into church history as builders. Miles played a major role in the construction of St. George Temple. Then, Brigham Young hired Miles to build a two-story addition to his winter home in St. George. Miles took on the task with zeal, constructing one of the most lavish residences in Utah, a sandstone brick dwelling with an elaborate porch painted red and green. The restored home is visited today by Mormons from around the world, who are told of Miles's role in building the house. Pictures of Young and Romney hang in an adjoining building.
But while Miles was prospering as a builder, he had increasing trouble handling two wives. Hannah wrote that Caroline "was very jealous of me.... She wanted all my husband's attention. When she couldn't get it there was always a fuss in the house. (Miles), being a just man, didn't give way to her tantrums."
Miles and Caroline had two children, whom Hannah helped to care for. But Caroline was not satisfied. She asked Young for permission to return to her parents in Salt Lake City. The separation was "the severest trial ever experienced" by Miles, according to "Life Story of Miles Park Romney," written by his son, Thomas. Miles and Hannah "made a special trip of three hundred miles by wagon to try to induce Carrie to return to her home in Saint George. But all their pleadings were in vain," and a divorce was granted, according to the biography.
Miles, meanwhile, was climbing in prominence in the church. He was given a new responsibility: defeat a congressional effort to enforce antipolygamy prohibitions.
Miles and four other Mormon leaders signed a letter stating that "the Anti-polygamy bill ... is unconstitutional and is an act of special legislation and ostracism, never before heard of in a republican government and its parallel hardly to be found in the most absolute despotisms, disfranchising and discriminating, as it does, 200,000 free and loyal citizens, because of a particular tenet in their religious faith."
Miles and the others said the legislation violated the Declaration of Independence's guarantee that all men had the rights of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" and the Constitution's guarantee of freedom of religion.
The lobbying paid off and the bill died in the Senate, but other antipolygamy laws remained on the books.
For a brief time, with Caroline having left, Miles and Hannah were once again in a single-wife marriage. It was then, in 1871, that Hannah gave birth to Gaskell, the grandfather of Mitt Romney.
Two years after Gaskell's birth, however, Miles met the fair-skinned Catharine Cottam, who had flowing hair, a serene smile, and was described by her brother as the "prettiest girl in St. George." Miles married Catharine in Salt Lake City on Sept. 15, 1873.
Hannah, seven months pregnant, did not attend the wedding. Instead, she prepared a room for Catharine, whom she called "a girl of good principles and a good Latter-day Saint."
"I cannot explain how I suffered in my feelings while I was doing all this hard work, but I felt that I would do my duty if my heart did ache," Hannah wrote.
Two months after Miles and Catharine were married, the child of Miles and Hannah died during delivery. Hannah blamed herself.
"I felt I had caused it by doing so much hard work," Hannah wrote.
Nearly four years later, Miles married again, taking as his wife Annie M. Woodbury, a schoolteacher.
Miles's life in St. George with Hannah, Catharine and Annie briefly settled into a comfortable, devout routine. But church leaders in Salt Lake City intervened, devising a plan to plant Mormon communities in an arc throughout the West. Miles was told by church leaders to uproot his family and help settle the town of St. Johns, Ariz.
The journey of almost 500 miles was harrowing, requiring the wagon trains to skirt the northern rim of the Grand Canyon.
"Here you can see the river hundreds of feet below you winding its way between perpendicular banks of solid rock without a tree to be seen and devoid of vegetation," Catharine wrote her parents, as quoted in a volume compiled by her great-granddaughter, titled, "Letters of Catharine Cottam Romney, Plural Wife."
Finally, the Romneys arrived in St. Johns. It was a sparsely settled town, a Wild West amalgamation of gun-toting farmers and laborers, including American Indians and Mexicans, who were especially resentful of new settlers such as the Mormons. The local newspaper, the Apache Chief, urged on May 30, 1884, that "the shotgun and rope" be used to get rid of Mormon settlers.
"Hang a few of their polygamist leaders such as ... Romney ... and a stop will be put to it," the newspaper said.
Catharine began to fear her surroundings, writing, "I believe there are some as wicked people here as can be found anywhere on the footstool of God."
The tensions accelerated as local authorities sought to try Romney on charges of polygamy. To avoid prosecution, Miles sent Catharine and Annie into hiding.
But authorities brought new charges, alleging that Miles lied about having title to his land. One night, a marshal arrived at the Romney home after midnight, demanding that Miles surrender.
"The marshal had a gun in one hand and handcuffs in the other," Hannah wrote.
A colony in Mexico
Miles fled to Utah, where he was told by church leaders "to go to Old Mexico and build a city of refuge for the people that would have to go there on account of persecutions of polygamy," Hannah wrote. Miles agreed and decided it was safest to go with only one of his wives, Annie. He left behind Hannah and Catharine and their children, hoping they would reunite in the coming months.
After weeks of travel, Miles reached a vantage point in the Mexican mountains.
Gazing upon a valley that extended for miles on the banks of the Piedras Verdes River, Miles Romney saw mesquite and cactus carpeting the flatlands, with stands of scrub oak shading the riverbanks. The valley floor was 5,000 feet high, providing a climate cool enough to support peach and apple trees. Beyond brown hills, the towering, pine-covered peaks of the Sierra Madre curtained the valley, catching the winter snows that would provide ample water for irrigation. This would be the colony of Juarez — Colonia Juarez.
At first, Miles was desperately poor and responsible for an enormous family. He lived out of a wagon, and then a crude hut.
On Dec. 27, 1885, shortly after helping establish the colony, Miles despaired of his plight. He feared federal marshals might come to Mexico to arrest him. He was uncertain about the fate of Hannah and Catharine.
"I sometimes think that I am only an injury now to both my family and my friends," Miles wrote to Catharine's brother Thomas. "I have borrowed my friends' money, and my family receive no support from me, and the prospect ahead seems as black as midnight darkness."
Soon, Hannah arrived. Then, more than a year after Romney arrived in Mexico, Catharine joined them. A festive reunion followed, with Miles, his three wives, and their children. ൝ of us all together had a splendid dinner," Catharine wrote her parents.
The town, meanwhile, began to take shape, due in significant part to Gaskell Romney. At 15, he helped build the canal that irrigated the fields, and helped build a family farm known as Cliff Ranch, in the mountains overlooking Colonia Juarez.
Then the family's world came crashing down once again. Back in Utah, some of the same LDS leaders who had urged Romney to create a refuge for polygamy now turned against the practice.
In September 1890, church President Wilford Woodruff issued what was called the Manifesto: "I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land."
The careful wording of the Manifesto might have given some solace to the Romneys. They may have believed that Woodruff was referring to the law in the United States, not Mexico. They continued their practice of plural marriage but even more isolated than before. Indian attacks and crop failures were common.
Miles moved to a nearby town called Colonia Dublan and, in 1897, seven years after the Manifesto, married for a fifth time, to a wealthy widow named Emily Henrietta Eyring Snow, the only wife with whom he did not have children.
Gaskell, meanwhile, married Anna Amelia Pratt, who would become Mitt Romney's grandmother. Anna descended from one of the most important families in the LDS faith. Her grandfather, Parley Pratt, had 12 wives and was chosen by Joseph Smith as one of the 12 apostles.
Gaskell and Anna broke with their family traditions and did not engage in plural marriage.
After 12 years of marriage, the couple had a boy whom they named George W. Romney, the fourth of their seven children.
Revolution and return
The family lived happily in Mexico, where Gaskell and his family operated a prosperous ranch. But in 1912, after a revolution that ousted dictator Porfirio Diaz, rebel factions began mounting attacks throughout the countryside. Gaskell and other Mormons stockpiled guns. In July, the Romneys learned that hundreds of revolutionaries were nearby.
The family, including 5-year-old George, packed whatever they could carry and boarded an overloaded train to El Paso. For years afterward, the often-destitute Romneys moved from house to house, from California to Idaho to Utah. Gaskell eventually rebuilt his life, constructing homes in Salt Lake City and becoming bishop of the church's wealthiest ward. In the Great Depression, Gaskell "lost all he had and more," a family biography says.
He regained his financial footing from an unlikely source: Mexico. He had never given up trying to obtain financial compensation from the Mexican government for losing his family property.
Twenty-six years after the Romneys were forced from Mexico, the case of "Gaskell Romney vs. United States of Mexico" was heard in Salt Lake City in 1938. Gaskell requested $28,753 in damages. He was awarded $9,163, court records show — a sizable amount then.
The records say Gaskell gave half of the award to his son, George, which would have helped to put him on his road to becoming chairman of American Motors and governor of Michigan.
In 1941, three years after receiving the Mexican financial settlement, the Romneys made a sentimental return to Mexico, retracing the route of Miles P. Romney and his wives from Utah to Arizona to Mexico. Throughout the journey, Gaskell told George about his hardships but also his pride in establishing the remote Mormon outpost.
"Despite his many hardships he was never bitter about them," George wrote about his father. "His religion and the Kingdom of God always came first, and as a result he enabled his children to live through economic difficulties without their feeling deprived or losing faith in their future."
It was a lesson that George would impart to Mitt.
Mission test
Mitt Romney's missionary work began not in glamorous Paris but in gritty Le Havre, a seaport along the English Channel.
The one-bedroom apartment that he shared with three other missionaries had no telephone, no television and no radio. There were also no Mormons in Le Havre, so the four American missionaries would hold worship in their apartment, taking turns preaching and singing and offering each other the sacrament of bread and water.
"I remember we went down and we went to a place where they had used mattresses off of ships, and so these mattresses were quite good mattresses but they were very narrow, and so we got some cinder blocks and some plywood doors and a mattress and that's what we had for beds," said Donald K. Miller, then Romney's senior companion, and now a dentist in Calgary.
The missionaries would wake up at 6 a.m., eat breakfast, study the Bible, the Book of Mormon and French, and knock on doors, with breaks for meals and a required bedtime of 10 p.m. They traveled on Solex motorized bicycles, wearing their suits and carrying satchels with pamphlets about Mormonism.
"You knock on the door very simply, you say, 'Bonjour, Madame. Nous sommes deux jeunes Americains,'" Romney would recall. "That means 'We are two young Americans.' And continuing, 'We're talking to people in your neighborhood about our faith and wonder if you'd like to ...' BANG! The door shuts. And most people assumed we were salesmen and said, 'No, I don't want any,' and would shut the door. A lot of people would say, 'Americans? Get out of Vietnam!' BANG!"
Romney became a passionate defender of America's role in Vietnam. And he worked hard to memorize key French words and phrases that would help in his missionary work.
"Whenever we had a discussion he hadn't learned, he would go have a long, hot bath, and when he would come out, he would have the discussion memorized," Miller recalled. "I was dumbfounded."
Romney also stood out for his rarefied background. One of his fellow missionaries, Gerald Anderson, now an Alberta agrologist, recalled how Romney, on a trip to Paris, stunned everyone with his familiarity with the fine French perfumes in a shop on the Champs Elysees.
At the urging of a church official from Utah, Romney encouraged his fellow missionaries to read "Think and Grow Rich!" a 1937 self-help book by Napoleon Hill that had been reissued in 1960. The book argued that wealth and success grew out of the rigorous application of personal beliefs. There was little that was rich or comfortable in the missionary experience, but fellow missionaries say Romney applied himself with the faith of a true believer.
In the "Conversion Diary," then a newsletter of the French Mission, he is mentioned repeatedly for standout numbers of hours spent door-knocking, numbers of copies of the Book of Mormon distributed and numbers of invitations for return visits. He was promoted through the ranks, first to zone leader in Bordeaux, and then to the highest position attainable by a missionary, that of assistant to the mission president in Paris.
But his time in Paris was marred by the car accident that killed Leola Anderson, wife of the mission president, Duane Anderson. Romney was driving when the crowded Citroen was hit by another car.
Romney's injuries were serious enough that his father asked Mitt's brother-in-law, Dr. Bruce Robinson, to fly to France to oversee the medical care. But within a few weeks, Mitt was seemingly back to normal, and his friends were struck by how quickly he threw himself back into work, determined not to let the tragedy slow the mission.
"His resilience was truly astounding," said Joel H. McKinnon, who was the senior assistant to the president in the mission home. "He would have 20 ideas in 35 minutes, and it'd take me a week to have that many.... He didn't seem to be particularly pensive or particularly concerned about the accident, as to what had happened to him and how close he'd come to death.... He was back and ready to work."
In the absence of the mission president, who had returned to the United States after his wife's death, Romney took on a greater leadership role. It was during this period, in late 1968, that some people say they saw the first glimpses of the super-organized achiever who many knew in later years.
He devised innovative ways to engage the French. In a letter to his parents, he talked about reaching out to people through "singing, basketball exhibitions, archelogy (sic) lectures, street meetings.... Why even last Sat night my comp (companion) and I went into bars, explaining that we had a message of great happiness and joy."
Noticing some French people's interest in America, he staged USA nights to show slides about America; in one city he offered a talk on American politics. In November, just before finishing his mission, he gave a talk at a missionary conference based upon the Book of Alma in the Book of Mormon, about "desire" and "how we can obtain anything we want in life — if we want it badly enough" according to a missionary's journal.
Romney would go on to great material success, and the LDS Church continued to play a big role in his life. Over the years, he would give millions of dollars to the church, following a LDS requirement for tithing, or contributing 10 percent of one's income; he would visit temples throughout the world; and he would serve in several key church roles, as bishop of a ward in Belmont and president of the Boston stake, a group of about a dozen congregations in eastern Massachusetts.
In the late 1990s, a new LDS temple, serving all of the Northeast, rose over his hometown of Belmont.
Now, as he runs for president, he points to his time in France as a key moment in his spiritual development: "I came to know my faith a great deal better by virtue of my two years in France."
On the campaign trail, he angered some Mormons by denouncing the church's history of plural marriage, saying on CBS's Minutes," "I can't imagine anything more awful than polygamy."
But his family's history, like that of his church, is an ever-present part of his life: In the first-floor hallway of his home the portraits of five generations of Romneys hang in an unbroken line: Miles Archibald, Miles Park, Gaskell, George and Mitt.
Contributing: Michael Kranish reported from Mexico; Michael Paulson reported from France. Globe correspondent Julie Chazyn contributed from France.
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powderpuff answered on 07/02/07:Thanks for the background information PrinceHassim!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | peddler2 asked on 06/29/07 - Fred agrees that God is Beelzebub! I repeat Fred and I do not Worship the same God.
Clarification/Follow-up by arcura on 06/29/07 3:03 pm:
I thought that you did a fine job on that.
I have been all for you against peddler and Tom. That is not silence
domino 03/21/07
DON'T put up with it, you Pussy, go to Gombe and kill a few thousand Muslims for your blood thirsty Christ. That should prove that you are a LOT better than they. You know you are just aching to KILL for your petty desert god!!!!
Clarification/Follow-up by domino on 03/22/07 7:59 pm:
Toms777:
HATE isn't strong enough..I LOATH your monstrous desert god...as I would LOATH anyone who murders children without blinking an eye...who winks at Incest, whoredom, slavery, concubinage, adultery when it suits his perverted purpose....who teaches his followers that to kill un-believers is their duty. Too bad there is no word stronger than LOATHING!!! To assert that this MONSTER was the father of Jesus of Nazareth is nauseating. But, hey, if you create a monster god I guess you have to create a monster son to carry on the old man's traditions. Call him Beelzebub or Christ or Apollon...but DON't call him Jesus of Nazareth
So Fred stands by Domino and calls me a bigot? I believe in the God of the Bible not this moster that Fred and Domino agree on.
No one who agrees with Domino that God is the devil such as Fred is a Christian,end of story.
powderpuff answered on 06/29/07:Hello Peddler2,
And Quite a story it is! Wow, have you ever considered writing a novel?
I missed the part about Fred saying God is Beelzebub though, so you should work on the title.
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | JesseJamesDupree asked on 06/29/07 - Look at atons reply to Toms777's answer:)
http://answerway.com/viewans.php?pgtitle=Christianity&expid=Toms777&category=633&msection=0&quesid=62238&ansid=292981
powderpuff answered on 06/29/07:Hello JesseJamesDupree,
Normally I skip those parts.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | JesseJamesDupree asked on 06/29/07 - Who died and made you King, dumino??? And how dare you question anyone else, when you won't even provide proof of your "Fantastic Movie" You have evaded that "Hot Potato" for 2 months, so till you answer that one, sit back and shut up pops!:) powderpuff answered on 06/29/07:Hello JesseJamesDupree,
I guess he's been too busy following the leader and pouring ketchup all over the spam. I have been absent for a while so I'm not sure what its all about, but I can see domino has joined the spammers :)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 06/29/07 - Witnesses for Christ Scriptures and the Church are witnesses for Christ. How marvelous it is, in a day of doubt concerning the divinity of Jesus Christ, that Jesus himself should once again guide and direct his people upon this planet. How significant it is, in a time of perplexity about the problems of mankind, that we should be given a second scriptural witness in the form of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon supplements, but does not supplant, the Bible. The two books together declare the divinity of Jesus Christ and the importance of mankind's keeping the commandments of God, lest his judgments come upon them. powderpuff answered on 06/29/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
This has always been my understanding. Thanks for posting :)
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | JesseJamesDupree asked on 06/18/07 - Pericles.............. You say that we are all free to believe in whatever we want, then you proceed to spam the board with loads of Anti-Christian Rhetoric. Looks like you do not want people to believe in whatever they want, looks like to me, you are trying to pass off an atheist agenda here. Also why is it OK for you to spam, but no one else???? Could you be the "hypocrite" here that you grandstand so much against???? Perhaps you are the "Wolf" here and not me! LOL!!!!!!! powderpuff answered on 06/18/07:Hello JesseJamesDupree,
As it is, sometimes, some people hold dearly to a 'belief' system in which only others stink.
***However, this is just a belief system and there is much evidence to the contrary.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | JesseJamesDupree asked on 06/18/07 - Pericles............... Do you berate your Roman Catholic wife with this barrage of atheist crap???? If so ,one of two things have happened.1, she stopped going to church,and believing in God altogether or 2, she prayed fervently then kicked your wrinkled old baldheaded ass into the corner where you keep your mouth zipped. I'll go for number 2 ! LOL!!!!!! powderpuff answered on 06/18/07:Hello JesseJamesDupree,
He dare not! His wife would have to kick him to the curb. In fact his hate for Christians is so great that living with one causes a build-up of pressure, such that he must come here to harass Christians he finds online.......
Anyway, how insensitive can you get? The man claims to have a Christian wife, one that he loves and respects, and this is how he shows respect for her beliefs. What a jerk.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | JesseJamesDupree asked on 06/18/07 - Pericles queries summed up............. I'm an atheist and I want you to be one too!! Stick that in yer "Funk and wagnalls" slappy!!:) powderpuff answered on 06/18/07:Hello JesseJamesDupree,
Isn't it odd that he cries loudest about the behaviors he displays the most! LOL
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | peddler7118 asked on 06/18/07 - Mormonism in a Nutshell This is very accurate.
Mormonism in a Nutshell powderpuff answered on 06/18/07:Hello peddler7118,
I do hope you get it right one of these days.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | MaggieB asked on 06/18/07 - Spamming! Twenty-five straight questions by pericles, is that not spamming? Absolutely.
MaggieB powderpuff answered on 06/18/07:Hello MaggieB,
Yes, 25+ 'questions' (not real questions), more like crooked postings designed to MOCK Christians, IS SPAMMING, considering they are mostly mocking and jokes against Christianity, though the Poster claims to be tolerant of Christianity. The substance of his 25+ shows he is talking out of both sides of his mouth when he says he respects others right to believe as they wish. He claims his major objection is Christians who feel they must shove their message down his throat even though he rejects the idea of God. -->Problem with that is, I don't see any one of the Christian experts going to the Atheist board and hammering him to give up his godless ways. Instead, we find him HERE badgering the Christians. He just uses that as an excuse to come to the Christianity Board to harass Christians. His multiple posts (in bad taste) prove it.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 06/17/07 - Jesus Christ ...................................................................
Does Jesus Christ have his body today or has he laid it down again to be, as some insist, just a spirit like his Father?
Where is the body of Jesus today?
If he still aas it (that is, if he has not died again) and if, as some insist, Jesus is also the Father and the Father is only a spirit, where does that leave Jesus and his body?
With it, or without it, or does he take it up and lay it down as a man might do with a suit of clothes?
Does anyone know?
powderpuff answered on 06/17/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
If we believe the Bible, we know Jesus rose to heaven with his body. There are no eye witnesses to let us know if Jesus is there right now with his body or not.... but I read lots of people saw His ascension.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | revdauphinee asked on 06/17/07 - you are blessed If you woke up this morning
with more health than illness,
you are more blessed than the
million who won't survive the week.
If you have never experienced
the danger of battle,
the loneliness of imprisonment,
the agony of torture or
the pangs of starvation,
you are ahead of 20 million people
around the world.
If you attend a church meeting
without fear of harassment,
arrest, torture, or death,
you are more blessed than almost
three billion people in the world.
If you have food in your refrigerator,
clothes on your back, a roof over
your head and a place to sleep,
you are richer than 75% of this world.
If you have money in the bank,
in your wallet, and spare change
in a dish someplace, you are among
the top 8% of the world's wealthy.
If your parents are still married and alive,
you are very rare,
especially in the United States.
If you hold up your head with a smile
on your face and are truly thankful,
you are blessed because the majority can,
but most do not.
If you can hold someone's hand, hug them
or even touch them on the shoulder,
you are blessed because you can
offer God's healing touch.
If you can read this message,
you are more blessed than over
two billion people in the world
that cannot read anything at all.
You are so blessed in ways
you may never even know.
If you are feeling blessed, repay the blessings bestowed unto you and do something for others.
powderpuff answered on 06/17/07:Hello revdauphinee,
No complaints here! I am very thankful for my many blessings :)
Nice post, thank you.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | madddawg asked on 06/05/07 - Evolution's faith I came across this quote, which I am passing on for your meditation:
"Now evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." Duane Gish.
Is this an accurate description of the evolutionist blind faith? powderpuff answered on 06/05/07:Hello madddawg,
In my opnion, no. The statement is much to vague for me to agree it is accurate.
Many fossils have been found.
I came across this quote while looking up Duane Gish and I'll pass it along for your meditation:
"Gish relished scientific debates,....
Critics object to the often unstructured nature of the debates, what they call a "shotgun" approach to presenting many arguments, bouncing from one issue to another by continually throwing out new claims without bothering to answer previous objections, each of which would require considerable time and information to refute, a technique which has been referred to as the "Gish gallop.""
I think that is an accurate description of the techinques you and your friends like to use here on this board.
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 06/04/07 - The Mountain Meadows Massacre - latest research ......
Historians tell details of massacre
By Carrie A. Moore
Deseret Morning News
MOUNTAIN MEADOWS, Washington County — Nearly 150 years after scores of unarmed men, women and children were massacred here, the collective guilt still remains palpable enough among area residents that vandals regularly seek to alter the history laid out on memorial markers.
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The Mountain Meadows Massacre site attracted dozens of members of the Mormon History Association during Monday's tour.
So it was in the spirit of truth-telling and frankness that LDS Church historians led dozens of people to the monument on Monday, laying out in minute detail how men who had devoted their lives to God laid a plan and carried out the Mountain Meadows Massacre on Sept. 11, 1857.
The premeditated slaughter of 120 people that day was so horrific that many in southern Utah — some of whose ancestors participated in the killing — refuse to talk about the events to this day.
Historian Richard Turley acknowledged the "collective burden they have carried for many, many years," detailing how Issac C. Haight — then the mayor of Cedar City and the stake president of the LDS Church there — spearheaded a drive to kill the Arkansas immigrants.
He and others schemed to involve Paiute Indians so the killing could later be blamed on them. A few Paiutes were involved at some point, Turley said, but it is clear from the evidence that "white men did most of the killing."
Turley, director of the Family and Church History Department of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and two historian colleagues have spent the past several years researching and writing what will become the LDS faith's official account of what happened that fateful day. Their efforts have been enhanced by several other researchers who also helped seek out information from across the country.
The book is now with Oxford University Press, and the authors hope to have "Tragedy at Mountain Meadows" published by year's end.
"We hope by looking at these events squarely in the face that we can bring details" of the massacre to light so the descendants "don't have to labor under that sense of collective guilt any more," Turley said. The events have been clouded in controversy for decades, and several different writers have pieced together various versions of what happened and published books about the event.
Some — including local historian Will Bagley — have placed the blame squarely on then-church president Brigham Young, who Turley said did send letters to leaders in southern Utah in the months before the massacre — as federal troops were approaching the state — warning of interlopers who may cause harm and urging the LDS faithful to defend themselves.
He said some leaders — spurred by Haight — likely interpreted that message in a way that helped incite already-anxious LDS leaders to plan and carry out the massacre. But Turley said Young did not order the massacre, and when he received word in Salt Lake City that tensions were running high, he sent a message to let the Arkansas immigrants pass unharmed. It arrived too late.
Turley said some 50 to 60 LDS men — then part of a formal Mormon militia — did the bulk of the killing on orders from their superiors, though a few Paiute Indians had been persuaded by John D. Lee to attack the immigrant wagon train three different times in the days before the massacre, killing or wounding a few people but leaving the wagon train mostly intact.
After hatching a plan with Haight and others, Lee approached the wagon train under a white flag after the Indian attacks, offering to help provide the immigrants safe passage if they would give up their weapons and follow his orders on how to proceed, Turley said.
With little ammunition or water left and unsure of other options, the immigrants finally agreed. The women and children in the Fancher-Baker wagon train were separated from the men, and escorted north toward Pinto.
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Historian Richard Turley discusses the Mountain Meadows Massacre during a tour of massacre site.
Lee had told the men they were each to be accompanied by an armed militia man "to protect them from Indian attack," saying the Indians would not harm the women or children. As the company of men followed their families to the north, and the women and children crossed what is now state Route 18, an oral signal was given.
At that point, "each (militia) man turned to the man at his left and shot him at close range," Turley said, and others began killing the women and children, who ran back toward the men for help. Those that were able to escape the first shot and ran for cover were "intercepted by men on horseback and herded like cattle" into a group, where they were murdered.
Two sisters named Dunlap were saved from the killing by Paiute Indians, Turley said, but when Lee was told what had happened, he demanded to know why the Indians had spared them. When they told Lee the girls "were too pretty to kill," Lee retorted, "they are too old to live," and the girls were then murdered, because the plot was to kill all the immigrants old enough to talk about the massacre.
"It was a horrendous, horrendous atrocity," Turley said, resulting in trauma 150 years later not only for the descendants of the killers but particularly for the descendants of those small children who survived the attack, as well as those whose ancestors were murdered at the site.
Turley said he has spent much time at the monument to the victims, and descendants of the wagon train are often found there trying to understand what happened.
John D. Lee was the only person ever tried and convicted for his role in the massacre, and he was eventually executed in the same meadow where he helped orchestrate the murders, Turley said.
Though their accounts of many details surrounding the massacre differ — often widely — Turley acknowledged the role that Will Bagley's book has played "to reopen and advance the conversation" about the massacre.
Bagley was part of the tour group and said he considers Turley "a friend and an honest historian. But he will soon go through the fire," he said.
Turley described the book's likely impact as "major surgery and not just a Band-Aid" for an event that has been a sore spot not only with local descendants but for Latter-day Saints as a whole.
The story repeatedly surfaces among historians and researchers seeking to explain the church's history, as an entire segment of the recent PBS documentary "The Mormons" illustrates.
"We hope to get to a place where people can acknowledge it and deal with it."
E-mail: carrie@desnews.com
© 2007 Deseret News Publishing Companypowderpuff answered on 06/04/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
This massacre is a horrible tragedy and crime. One thing is absolutely certain, there is no one alive today who was there. I don't mean to diminish the massacre in any way, and I have no doubt in my mind that Mormons played the major role in the bloody murder of those innocent men, women, and children.
A dark and sad part of history, hopefully truth can pave the way for healing.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 06/04/07 - Is it right and moral to remain silent .............................
Is it right and moral to be silent whenever human beings endure suffering and humiliation, or should moral beiongs always take sides?
It is true that neutrality helps the oppressor, and never the victim, that silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented, so is a Christian who remains silent when others who claim to be of their number piles or attempts to pile suffering and humiliation on others whether they are Christian or nor, really a Christian?
Are those who stand by and hold the coats of the oppressors just as guilty as the stone chuckers?
Do Christians believe in absolute morality or not?
powderpuff answered on 06/04/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
Personally, I usually cannot remain silent when I see humans endure suffering and humiliation, especially if it is someone larger and more powerful doing the mistreatment, even if the one suffering is not of my kind.... even at my own risk!
Christians come in a wide variety. I've seen a lot of people who say they are Christian turn a blind eye when they see such abuse or suffering because they 'don't want to get involved', and go on their merry way without giving it a second thought.
Likewise, I have seen people who say they are Christian deliberately cause the suffering and humiliation of another, or other.
And then there are people who say they are Christians who speak out whenever and where ever they see such abuses.
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | arcura asked on 06/02/07 - The Surprising Truth Behind the Construction of the Great Pyramids. The Surprising Truth Behind the Construction of the Great Pyramids
By Sheila Berninger, and Dorilona Rose
This Behind the Scenes article was provided to LiveScience in partnership with the National Science Foundation.
"This is not my day job." So begins Michel Barsoum as he recounts his foray into the mysteries of the Great Pyramids of Egypt. As a well respected researcher in the field of ceramics, Barsoum never expected his career to take him down a path of history, archaeology, and "political" science, with materials research mixed in.
As a distinguished professor in the Department of Materials Science and Engineering at Drexel University, his daily routine consists mainly of teaching students about ceramics, or performing research on a new class of materials, the so-called MAX Phases, that he and his colleagues discovered in the 1990s. These modern ceramics are machinable, thermal-shock resistant, and are better conductors of heat and electricity than many metals-making them potential candidates for use in nuclear power plants, the automotive industry, jet engines, and a range of other high-demand systems.
Then Barsoum received an unexpected phone call from Michael Carrell, a friend of a retired colleague of Barsoum, who called to chat with the Egyptian-born Barsoum about how much he knew of the mysteries surrounding the building of the Great Pyramids of Giza, the only remaining of the seven wonders of the ancient world.
The widely accepted theory-that the pyramids were crafted of carved-out giant limestone blocks that workers carried up ramps-had not only not been embraced by everyone, but as important had quite a number of holes.
Burst out laughing
According to the caller, the mysteries had actually been solved by Joseph Davidovits, Director of the Geopolymer Institute in St. Quentin, France, more than two decades ago. Davidovits claimed that the stones of the pyramids were actually made of a very early form of concrete created using a mixture of limestone, clay, lime, and water.
"It was at this point in the conversation that I burst out laughing," says Barsoum. If the pyramids were indeed cast, he says, someone should have proven it beyond a doubt by now, in this day and age, with just a few hours of electron microscopy.
It turned out that nobody had completely proven the theory...yet.
"What started as a two-hour project turned into a five-year odyssey that I undertook with one of my graduate students, Adrish Ganguly, and a colleague in France, Gilles Hug," Barsoum says.
A year and a half later, after extensive scanning electron microscope (SEM) observations and other testing, Barsoum and his research group finally began to draw some conclusions about the pyramids. They found that the tiniest structures within the inner and outer casing stones were indeed consistent with a reconstituted limestone. The cement binding the limestone aggregate was either silicon dioxide (the building block of quartz) or a calcium and magnesium-rich silicate mineral.
The stones also had a high water content-unusual for the normally dry, natural limestone found on the Giza plateau-and the cementing phases, in both the inner and outer casing stones, were amorphous, in other words, their atoms were not arranged in a regular and periodic array. Sedimentary rocks such as limestone are seldom, if ever, amorphous.
The sample chemistries the researchers found do not exist anywhere in nature. "Therefore," says Barsoum, "it's very improbable that the outer and inner casing stones that we examined were chiseled from a natural limestone block."
More startlingly, Barsoum and another of his graduate students, Aaron Sakulich, recently discovered the presence of silicon dioxide nanoscale spheres (with diameters only billionths of a meter across) in one of the samples. This discovery further confirms that these blocks are not natural limestone.
Generations misled
At the end of their most recent paper reporting these findings, the researchers reflect that it is "ironic, sublime and truly humbling" that this 4,500-year-old limestone is so true to the original that it has misled generations of Egyptologists and geologists and, "because the ancient Egyptians were the original-albeit unknowing-nanotechnologists."
As if the scientific evidence isn't enough, Barsoum has pointed out a number of common sense reasons why the pyramids were not likely constructed entirely of chiseled limestone blocks.
Egyptologists are consistently confronted by unanswered questions: How is it possible that some of the blocks are so perfectly matched that not even a human hair can be inserted between them? Why, despite the existence of millions of tons of stone, carved presumably with copper chisels, has not one copper chisel ever been found on the Giza Plateau?
Although Barsoum's research has not answered all of these questions, his work provides insight into some of the key questions. For example, it is now more likely than not that the tops of the pyramids are cast, as it would have been increasingly difficult to drag the stones to the summit.
Also, casting would explain why some of the stones fit so closely together. Still, as with all great mysteries, not every aspect of the pyramids can be explained. How the Egyptians hoisted 70-ton granite slabs halfway up the great pyramid remains as mysterious as ever.
Why do the results of Barsoum's research matter most today? Two words: earth cements.
"How energy intensive and/or complicated can a 4,500 year old technology really be? The answer to both questions is not very," Barsoum explains. "The basic raw materials used for this early form of concrete-limestone, lime, and diatomaceous earth-can be found virtually anywhere in the world," he adds. "Replicating this method of construction would be cost effective, long lasting, and much more environmentally friendly than the current building material of choice: Portland cement that alone pumps roughly 6 billion tons of CO2 annually into the atmosphere when it's manufactured."
"Ironically," says Barsoum, "this study of 4,500 year old rocks is not about the past, but about the future."
Do you believe it? powderpuff answered on 06/02/07:Hello arcura,
Very interesting, thanks.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | tropicalstorm asked on 06/02/07 - now exactly what or how did Peddles and JJD's spam 'shut down' AW like it did to wetellyou and askme?
just curious
powderpuff answered on 06/02/07:Hello Tropicalstorm,
Perc has been predicting this exact problem for years, lol!
Good thing he has stay with it power! Sometimes that is called OCD.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | peddler7118 asked on 05/16/07 - Purgatory and the Druids I have never seen a Druid bible. I'll bet that there is no such thing.
The reality of Purgatory IS in the KJV and other far better, much more accurate, versions of the bible.
You must be reading at a 1st grade level.
Funny but I have read the Bible and I have never seen any discription of a place that even remotely resembles the Druid idea of Purgatory that was grafted into the Roman religion.
If a Christian accepts the blood atonement of Christ He is saved. He is washed clean in the blood of the Lamb. His sins are remembered no more. The RCC rejects the atonement of Christ out of hand and gives it varying degrees of revelance as the years go by. The Bible. like it's author is unchanging.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
If God does not remember our sins why we would He punish us?
Apparently the God of the Bible and the god of the RCC are not the same .
British Druids
If one rejects the blood atonement as complete how can they be saved?
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted.
The Bible is clear. Jesus Christ was the Messiah, the expected one, the Passover Lamb.
When the Hebrews covered their door posts with the blood of the lamb they did not suffer at all, they were saved whole.
When we cover our sins with the Blood of the Lamb we are saved whole,once are forever.
That is the Christian faith in a nutshell. Purgatory is the stuff of demons and Druids.
powderpuff answered on 05/16/07:Hello Peddler,
I don't know a lot about the Catholic religion, but I know they believe some things that I find odd and weird and I don't understand .... but, I have never had the urge to make fun of them, or belittle them, or think any less of them. I have never had the urge to get into an arguement with one of them about whether or not they are doing things right religiously, or whether they have been saved, or what their standing is with God on the issue of their salvation and everything else they believe. Its easy to make fun of things you don't understand, and I will admit, I have been tempted to make fun of some of the things about the Catholic religion that I don't understand, like "indulgence" for one... but that is neither here nor there, my point is, I have never felt that it would be productive or even nice to make fun of someone elses sacredly held beliefs whether I believe it or not.
If something they are doing or believing is bothering me so much, I would rather just ask them what it all means rather than try to ridicule something I don't really understand. I don't have to accept what someone else believes to be careful with how I treat them. (besides that, have you seen how beautiful their churches are?)
I do believe they know about God and have accepted Jesus as their savior. What happens after that is between them and their maker.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | peddler2 asked on 05/16/07 - Bloody Mary and Satan's Other Children Rejoicing and laughing at the death of Rev. Falwell has shown the bloodthirsty hatred of the demom possessed.
Bloody Mary and her sidekick Perv are supported by the compromisers here and opposed by the Bible Believers. Think about that seriously.
Laughing and rejoicing when someones father , brother, husband and granfather passes away is as bigotted as it is humanly possibe to be. Those that supports these dogs of society are no better. powderpuff answered on 05/16/07:Hello Peddler2,
I was not a follower of Rev. Falwell, however, I was saddened at the news of his sudden and unexpected death.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 05/16/07 - If You Could Hie to Kolob ..... "
The Mormon hymn, "If You Could Hie to Kolob" contains profound spiritual truths of the eternal nature of God and man. I post the words here for the sake of those who have only read the title of the hymn and invite those with spiritual sensitivity to ponder the words and their meaning. The restored gospel of jesus Christ cannot be confined to the narrow, closed system of traditional Christianity. It bursts the bonds of man-made doctrines and soars into the limitless reaches of endless time and space. Even modern astronomical theory, which measures cosmic distances in the millions of light years, pales before those truths revealed through Joseph Smith and poetically described by W. W. Phelps:
If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?
Or see the grand beginning,
Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation,
Where Gods and matter end?
Me thinks the Spirit whispers,
"No man has found 'pure space,'
Nor seen the outside curtains,
Where nothing has a place."
The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.
There is no end to virtue;
There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom;
There is no end to light.
There is no end to union;
There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood;
There is no end to truth.
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
Just as Copernicus overturned the myopic medieval notion of a Ptolemaic physical universe in which the sun, moon,and stars revolved in obeisance around this one tiny planet, so did Joseph Smith destroy the equally myopic notion of a lone triune deity creating and sustaining all things throughout the boundless reaches of absolute space.
When the Prophet Joseph Smith revealed that the true theological universe really was Copernican in nature, the Latter-day Saints were freed from the traditional scriptural strait-jacket worn by most Christians. For the fact that there really are "gods many, and lords many" [1 Corinthians 8:5] ruling over "worlds without end" simply will not allow for a theological Ptolemaic universe, a universe that never did, and never will, exist.
There is but one specific God for us, El Shaddai, or Elophim, and there but one specific Saviour for us, Jesus of Nazareth. How many other worlds are encompassed by his infinite sacrifice is yet to be revealed. Also unknown is the extent of his labors as the Creator, the Father's "word of my power."
This hymn, much maligned by those who have superficial understanding of spiritual truths and related matters, shows our God moving in majesty across his many creations, yet always concerned with each one of his spirit offspring [Heb 12.9; Acts 17.29], and expressing this concern by revealing His eternal truths to his children in His traditional way by calling and anointing prophets to minister on the earth in His name.
The hymn affirms our faith that God is at the helm of life and that his inlfuence is everywhere, and speaks of many truths concerning the eternal nature of man and his relationship to that Deity who is our Father in Heaven. and Jesus Christ our Saviour who the Father sent to be our Redeemer and Advocate.
powderpuff answered on 05/16/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
I always liked the song and what it means.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 05/14/07 - Peterson on the Tanners ... setting the record straight for poor blind bigot tom.
(This originally appeared in the Salt Lake City Messenger, Issue No. 94, August, 1998)
Since we began publishing material regarding the Mormon Church in 1959, church leaders have care-fully avoided making any mention of our work. David Merrill wrote:
"The official attitude of the Mormon hierarchy towards the Tanners has been one of silence and apparent unconcern. They have, however, actively discouraged LDS scholars and intellectuals from jousting with the Tanners. . . ." (Utah Holiday, February 1978, page 7)
This is an untruth of Goliathan proportions. Mormon scholars have mase cogetn rebuts of the stuff and nonsesne posted by the Tanners, BUT THE TANNERS LIKE ALL OTHER ANTI-MORMONS REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT!
....
The article appeared in the Deseret News on May 16, 1998, under the title, TANNERS ARE WELLSPRING OF DOCUMENTS. We have no way of knowing how many other newspapers picked up the story.
...
THE TANNERS SAID:
One other thing should be mentioned regarding the Associated Press story. Mormon professor Daniel C. Peterson of Brigham Young University complained that one of his comments concerning our work was misunderstood. In a letter he wrote to the Deseret News he stated:
"I was dismayed to see myself, in the recent Associated Press article on them, praising Jerald and Sandra as unexcelled researchers ("Tanners are wellspring of documents," May 16). 'As far as LDS history goes,' I remarked, 'there's no one out there who has the documents mastered as they do.'
Perhaps I was not clear. I meant that there is nobody among professional critics of the LDS Church who knows the historical documents as well as the Tanners do . . . there are certainly plenty of serious historians whose factual knowledge is equal to or better than theirs . . ."
WILL TOM BIGOT EVER MANAGE TO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT ANYTHING?
powderpuff answered on 05/15/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
I don't think he will, thats why I don't waste my time going round and round the mulberry bush with him. It does no good, and actually uses up time that could be spent doing something more pleasurable that could possibly have a positive outcome.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | STONY asked on 05/13/07 - A MOMENT FOR HUMOR... TWO ELDERLY PEOPLE IN THEIR 90'S WERE CONCERNED ABOUT FAILING MEMORY SO THEY DECIDED TO WRITE THINGS DOWN SO THEY WOULDN'T FORGET. ONE NITE LATE THE WIFE SAID TO HER HUSBAND, "GO TO THE FRIDGE AND GET ME SOME ICE CREAM. BUT
I WANT STRAWBERRIES AND WHIPPED CREAM ON IT ALSO...YOU'D BETTER WRITE IT DOWN. THE HUSBAND REPLIED, "I'LL REMEMBER
DON'T WORRY." HE PROCEEDS TO THE KITCHEN AND RETURNS ABOUT 20 MINUTES LATER WITH A PLATE OF BACON AND EGGS. THE WIFE SEEING THIS REPLIED, "WHERE'S THE TOAST?"
HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY!! powderpuff answered on 05/13/07:HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Thanks for the laughs!!!!
:D
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 05/12/07 - Mothers' Day ................................
I wish a joyous and happy Mothers' Day to all mothers.
Behold Thy Mother
By Ronnie Bray
I watched the mothers, some young, some not so young, who had carried their fretful babies to the back of the auditorium at the conference. Though quite different women, each held their little ones close in roughly the same way, swaying gently, cooing softly into their ears, and enticing them to sleep.
The scene before my eyes misted over and changed. In my imagination I saw their babies grown to manhood and womanhood, and I knew what they would never know: that their mothers carried them, bore them, held them, sacrificed their time, comfort, and health to love them through bleak and cheerless days, troubled and tormented nights, and did whatever the moment demanded to make them well again and restore their sweet smiles of baby peace. Children grow up ignorant of every sweet or troubled moment so spent on them by their mothers.
Once assumed, motherhood can not lightly be laid down. It endures beyond the narrow confines of mortality into the far reaches of eternity, where the attributes of matriarchy are known for what they are – characteristics of deity.
The wages of motherhood are not paid in full during mortality. A mother’s labour does not stop when her heart beats its last, and her breath slips from her with a sigh. Mothers know this, but undertake the role with love and thanksgiving, accepting that ingratitude will often reward their efforts to render help or advice.
Each memory of the earliest months and years are imprinted into the mother’s heart, and burned into her brain, but the child often forgets, acting as if those days had never been, and that makes for the worst kind of pain.
Mothers are not perfect. There is no prior requirement for would-be mothers to be faultless or expert. Even so, most strive for perfection, and many get close enough to pass with honours. Children of any age who harbour the expectation that their mother should be perfect are labouring under a delusion whose identical twin is the idea that life will be fair. The best that can be said of any mother is that despite her imperfections, she tried always to do her best to raise her children well.
This upward striving, often against her intrinsic nature, is the willing sacrifice of a mother’s loving heart, swiftly turned from her own interests when the badge of “Mother” is pinned to her breast. She is always ‘mother’ although the direction and intensity of her role changes as her family grows.
Now a girl, little more than a child, nursing a newborn that demands all her devotion so that he can live, be healthy, increase in wisdom, and grow to adulthood.
Now a mature woman with three or more little ones tugging at her skirts, juggling her time, coping with the many calls and tasks that fly at her with the velocity of machine gun bullets, without diluting the love, care, and tenderness she imparts to each.
Now a matron, watching her teenaged children hover on the edge of maturity, but who still desperately need to hold her hand as they unfurl their wings before the wide blue arc of life.
Now a grandmother with smiling eyes, silver hair, and tears in her eyes cradling her grandchild and remembering.
Then a great-grandmother remembering little with clarity, her wrinkled face reverting to angelic gentleness when she is visited by sweet children whose parent’s names she has forgotten.
- - -
As Jesus hung on the Cross of Calvary, he made provision for his mother by commanding John the Beloved, Son, behold they mother. In these few words, Jesus defines our responsibilities to our mothers.
How appropriate, that even in the hour of his glory, as he made the perfect Atonement, he recognised the part his mother had played in his preparation to become the Saviour of the World, and he made provision for her to be comforted at the hour of his death, and for her continuing welfare, through the good offices of one whom he loved and trusted.
In the Fellowship of the Cross, Jesus teaches us about mothers, and the regard and esteem that he and his Father in Heaven have for them. Through this, we begin to realise the exalted station of motherhood. Someone said that mothers go down to the edge of the grave to bring their children into the world, and this is true. What is equally true is that mothers never stop loving their children, even when their children are ungrateful and, sometimes, unkind.
When I was young, I was disappointed that my mother had not made me better than I was. My feelings towards her changed when I realised that she had done her best, and I began to appreciate all that she had done for me, rather than count what I considered to be her failings. Since then, I have felt much better, and so has my mother.
Whatever our mothers may or may not have done for us, they gave us life, and nurtured us according to their imperfect best. To each of us, especially we who have not managed to be sufficiently grateful, the Voice from the Cross commands,
Behold thy mother.
Are you listening?
Copyright © Ronnie Bray
14 May 2000
All Rights Reserved
powderpuff answered on 05/13/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
Thanks for the great Mother's Day message, I enjoyed it! I wish my mom lived closer to me, she deserves some medals ......... it wasn't easy raising me :)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | peddler7118 asked on 05/11/07 - Ronnie-The Greatest Mormon Prophet Since Smith? Apparently it is true . Bringam Young taught that Adam was our father and our god and raped Mary to produce Jesus. Adam-the god of this world?
Ronnie says:
Adam is not God. God created Adam in the Garden of Eden and then threw him out of his sight!
Seeing as Young was the greatest prophet since Smith and Ronnie is superior to Young the only question remaining is he greater than Joseph Smith?
Of course Ronnie also claims that Abraham , Issac and Jacob was a god and Adam were gods. Confused? I sure am.
powderpuff answered on 05/12/07:Hello peddler,
Apparently you seem confused about what Mormonism is and what Mormons believe.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | peddler7118 asked on 05/12/07 - All Mormons are Bigots According to Ronnie intolerance is bigotry. Here is absolute proof that every Mormon who ever lived is a bigot according to Ronnie.
Mormon scriptures claim that the LDS church is "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (Doctrine and Covenants, 1:30).
Joseph Smith stated: "This [the LDS] Church...is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (Doctrine and Covenants 1:30).
President Ezra Taft Benson said: "This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth..." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165).
Bruce McConkie stated: "If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119).
Statements by Mormon Leaders about Christian churches (made by many of the LDS Prophet-Presidents):
Joseph Smith stated that God told him: "they [other churches] were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:19).
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
powderpuff answered on 05/12/07:Hello peddler7118,
No, all Mormons are not bigots. All Mormons are Christian though and, just as in any group, you can probably find a bigot or two in the mix.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 05/10/07 - Catholics, Evangelicals, and Mormons Oppose Bigotry ............... Catholics and evangelicals leap to Romney's defense
By Lisa Riley Roche
Deseret Morning News
Catholics and evangelicals came to the LDS Church's and GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney's defense Wednesday, calling on the Rev. Al Sharpton to answer for suggesting Mormons don't believe in God.
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Mitt Romney
"Extraordinarily bigoted" was how Romney described Sharpton's comment made during a debate on religion held Monday in New York City, where Sharpton said, "as for the one Mormon running for office, those that really believe in God will defeat him anyway, so don't worry about that, that's a temporary situation."
The former Democratic presidential candidate spent Wednesday defending his remark. He told the Associated Press that he was not questioning Romney's belief in God but was attempting to contrast himself with the atheist author he was debating, Christopher Hitchens.
"What I said was that we would defeat him, meaning as a Republican," Sharpton told the wire service. "A Mormon, by definition, believes in God. They don't believe in God the
way I do, but by definition, they believe in God."
Sharpton told CNN's Paula Zahn on Wednesday evening he was responding to Hitchens' claim that Mormons are an example of how religion promotes racism because the church had excluded blacks.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not grant the priesthood to males of all races until 1978.
Sharpton said if Mormons did not in the past see blacks as equal, they're not "real worshippers of God because I do not believe God distinguishes between people. That is not bigotry. That's responding to their beliefs."
It was Hitchens who "attacked the Mormons," not him, Sharpton said. "I'm the one that belongs to a race that couldn't join the Mormons and I'm the one that's the bigot," he said, calling on Romney to explain his views on his church's position on blacks.
Romney, who would be the first member of the LDS Church to serve as president if his race for the White House is successful in 2008, responded earlier in the day to Sharpton on the MSNBC cable network news channel's "Morning Joe" program.
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Rev. Al Sharpton
"I can only, hearing that statement, wonder whether there's not bigotry that still remains in America," Romney said, adding that most people "have no interest in applying a religious test or suggesting that God wants one faith or another to succeed in becoming the president."
Romney, who led Salt Lake's successful 2002 Winter Olympics before serving as governor of Massachusetts, called what Sharpton said an "extraordinarily bigoted kind of statement, and I find it really quite extraordinary."
A spokesman for the LDS Church, Scott Trotter, had little to say about Sharpton's comment. "It's just campaign rhetoric and we're referring everyone back to Romney," Trotter said.
The Catholic League called for Sharpton to "be held accountable for his bigoted outburst" and suggesting it "should finish his career," just as Don Imus' recent racist statements resulted in the cancellation of his radio show. Sharpton was among Imus' harshest critics.
Kiera McCaffrey, the New York City-based league's director of communications, said Mormons are experiencing what Catholics did when John F. Kennedy ran for president in 1960.
Kennedy, who became the nation's first Catholic president, ultimately had to address the question of whether he would be controlled by his church in a speech made just before the election. Romney's faith has raised similar concerns, especially among evangelical Christians.
"Catholics went through it. Now we see members of the LDS Church going through it," McCaffrey told the Deseret Morning News. "We're not hypocrites. If we're going to defend the rights of Catholics to participate in public life, we're going to do the same across the board."
The Rev. Rob Schenck, an evangelical minister who heads the National Clergy Council, issued a statement calling on Sharpton to "immediately apologize to Mr. Romney and the good people of the LDS Church and repent before God for such sinful hubris."
Schenck, who has met privately with Romney to talk about Mormonism, also said that "while many other Christian groups may have differences with LDS doctrine, to question someone else's sincerity of belief in God is the height of pharisaical arrogance."
The reaction to Sharpton's comment will help set boundaries for future discussions of Mormonism and other faiths in the campaign, said Kelly Patterson, director of Brigham Young University's Center for the Study of Elections and Democracy.
"You have evangelical groups and Catholic groups now saying that this is a line that has been crossed," Patterson said. "It helps not just Romney but all other candidates."
Kirk Jowers, director of the University of Utah's Hinckley Institute of Politics, said the controversy "will have no impact on how people perceive the LDS Church or Mitt Romney. ... This is much more about Sharpton."
He described Sharpton as "equal parts of publicity, pews and politics. I think publicity is driving this. It's another way for him to get back in the center of the storm. I think he enjoyed himself with Imus."
Jowers, a Romney supporter, said there "certainly is some irony and some hypocrisy in that (Sharpton) led the charge to get rid of Imus for an outrageous comment." Imus referred to members of the Rutgers University womens basketball team as "nappy-headed hos."
Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, said in a statement that while Sharpton "is eager to play the political correctness card when it suits his purposes, he apparently sees nothing wrong with an offensive attack against Gov. Mitt Romney using his religion."
Sharpton's comment came in first half-hour or so of a two-hour debate on "Is God Great?" as he was explaining the religious roots of the civil rights movement lead by Martin Luther King Jr.
Earlier, Hitchens had offered what he said was a contemporary example of using religion to justify racism. A GOP presidential candidate, he said, was a member of the "so-called Mormon Church" that had taught "that the Bible separates the sons of Ham and makes them lesser."
Sharpton said there was no question about the civil rights movement being faith-based. "Let's not reinvent Dr. King any more than we try to reduce God to some denomination or convention," he said, before launching into his comment on an unnamed Mormon candidate.
According to a tape of the debate, held at the New York Public Library, the audience laughed at what was clearly a reference to Romney before Sharpton continued his defense of religion and God.
Hitchens, his debate partner, has written a new book, "God Is Not Great," that labels the LDS Church "a plain racket" that has turned "into a serious religion before our eyes." The debate was moderated by Slate Magazine's Jacob Weisberg, also critical of Mormons.
Weisberg wrote in the online magazine last December that rejecting a Mormon presidential candidate is not religious bigotry. "I wouldn't vote for someone who truly believes the founding whoppers of Mormonism," Weisberg said in the article.
E-mail: lisa@desnews.com powderpuff answered on 05/10/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
Some people get ideas stuck inside their heads and no matter how much evidence shows to the contrary, they remain unwilling change their belief. Some of those people are simply simple people who have reached the limit of information their brains can intake and learn from.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | MaggieB asked on 05/09/07 - Tammy Faye Bakker Messner: Just for those who know and care, her doctors have taken her off all her meds and she weighs 65 pounds.
She has lots of pain so those who will, pray that her pain will soon end and she will be at peace. She is a "very" brave lady. I am told that if she would just give up she would be gone.
Thanks,
MaggieB powderpuff answered on 05/10/07:Hello Maggie,
I'm sorry to hear Tammy Faye is so sick. It does not make me happy that most of us get sick and suffer before we die.
Just curious, why do you say she is "very" brave?
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 05/05/07 - Spam ............................................................. 25 posts on Two pages is .....
..................................... SPAM!
powderpuff answered on 05/05/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
Is that what that is!? Just glancing, it looks more like an intense effort between 2 people with opposing views proving their positions, though I admit, I hardly read a thing.
I'm just too tired to read that stuff.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | darleneclemintine asked on 05/05/07 - Will he ever show the same respect that Christ showed to all of mankind? Will Toms777 ever show Hope the respect of spelling her name the way she wants it? powderpuff answered on 05/05/07:Hey there sis,
I would suppose that only Toms777 would know what he is going to do. Has Hope said anything about how to spell or type her name? I always thought hOPE12 or hOPE was what she wanted.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | tropicalstorm asked on 04/28/07 - why it pays not to be stupid
midasprankcall powderpuff answered on 04/28/07:Hello TS,
That call sounds a little too familiar LOL
;)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | tropicalstorm asked on 04/27/07 - Dom you got it all wrong these are JJD's family pics
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AND YES PETE THEY DO HAVE COLOR TV
HERE IS THEIR SATELITE DISH TO PROVE IT
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BTW
DISCLAIMER:
I'M a wanna be hillbilly
so no offense intended :)!!! powderpuff answered on 04/27/07:Hello TS,
Not surprising at all, all things considered.....
I'm a small town flat lander myself, always thought those hills would be nice.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | JesseJamesDupree asked on 04/27/07 - Since aton wants to be a hero......... ![]() Here he is, all decked out on the streets of new york, ready to "fight" crime.........although he'd rather "Talk" first!:)
powderpuff answered on 04/27/07:Hello JesseJamesDupree,
I never really understand it when I see a man dressed in women's shoes, but if that is what he likes, who am I to say he looks ridiculous? The shoe straps look a little tight with the bulging flesh between them, but the gox box sox are adorable!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | JesseJamesDupree asked on 04/26/07 - Pericles, it must be rough........... when a hillbilly figures out how to use HTML! What are the "elite" going to do!:) powderpuff answered on 04/27/07:Hello JesseJamesDupree,
I guess you two are on even ground now as far as what you can do to the board with your HTML talent! Now if we could just level the rest of the playing field.....
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | tropicalstorm asked on 04/22/07 - trying to get to the source Since PHA--
doesn't have time to correct Toms mormon chart and Peddles claims mormons teach eternally pregnant which doesn't make sense in the least bit (although it would have when I was pregnant for most of 1984-1988)
I tried to get it straight from the Mormon sites but
all I could find covering this topic were from sites on cults and ex-Mormons who MAY have had an ax to grind since they didn't explain where or how it is in the doctrine.
I would be interested in reading the Mormon original that it was taken from.
Could somebody give me the reference from the book of Mormon or wherever it was taken from?
Also why would anybody be eternally pregnant? What purpose would it serve??? powderpuff answered on 04/22/07:Hello TS,
My understanding (as a Mormon) is that those who claim Mormoms believe a woman's place in the hereafter is eternal pregnancy either don't understand Mormon belief, or they believe what some anti-Mormon has said. As a Mormon I do not and have not ever believed I or any other woman would spend eternity being pregnant.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | PrinceHassim asked on 04/21/07 - Who lied: Satan or 'lm? .................. ....................... .................
A person ['A'] has said that Mormonism has its roots in the Garden of Eden (in distinction to another person ['B'] who said it was a NAM) when Satan told the lie that man could become like the Most High God.
In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I must assume that person 'A' has this information from one of the pamphlets that he prefers to reading both the Holy Bible and reliable histories.
My question is whether the liar in the garden was Satan, God, or both. I ask, because if Satan lied when he told A&E that they could become like God, then God also lied when he said that they had become like him and the other God or Gods that were with him at Creation.
This is what the Bible says:
Now speaks SATAN [Serpent] (n- ch-sh):
"God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil". (AV)
[Non-Bigots of less than standard erudition will note that Satan does not say that they will BECOME gods, but that they shall be 'as' gods, but only in respect that they can then distinguish good from evil. A far cry from what the Anti-Mormon Brigade of Bigots say.]
Now speaks LORD God [yhvh 'lhm]:
" ... the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now ... " (AV)
Satan said man would become as gods, and God said they had become as 'one of us' [NOTE THE PLURAL "US" that Almighty God uses!]
If Satan is lying, as person 'A' says he is, then person 'A' also is saying that God is lying because he agrees with Satan and uses identical words that Satan uses.
QUESTION:.
Who, then, is the liar in Genesis 3?
powderpuff answered on 04/21/07:Hello PrinceHassim,
No liar as far as I can see in Genesis 3. Just disagreements (misunderstanding?) here between A & B over what it all means.
I wonder what God meant when he said in Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. ?? Did Satan and God both lie? Or is this passage just difficult to understand? Does salvation depend on getting this one right?
I wouldn't worry what person A is saying about Mormonism.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | peddler7118 asked on 04/01/07 - The love and tolerance of the godless domino 04/01/07
For a talking asshole who claimed 'no one knows who built the Pryamids' you have a helluva lot of chutzpah even MENTIONING THEM.
Got that old pistol right next to your head again, cupcake????
It must really SUCK being YOU!!!!!!! Mama sure did a number on YOU before she departed with all her demons trailing behind her!!!!
BTW Domino you need to contact all the morons at Harvard University and have them fire their entire archeology department because they are still debating who built the great pyramid at Giza.
It must be quite a burden being all knowing and all seeing in a world full of morons like the scientist ar Harvard and the idiotic Zahi Hawass of the Cairo Museum.
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I think he is saluting your great wisdom!
Happy Holiday!!!
Of course the INTELLECTUALS have always said Aliens did it because the ancient Egyptians were not yet evolved and intelligent like people who know they evolved from smelly monkeys.
powderpuff answered on 04/01/07:Hello peddler,
*Why are you surprised when the Queen of Knowledge repeatedly refers to you as "cupcake"?..........oops!
I heard my sister once say: If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all.
*I retract my answer.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Itsdb asked on 03/31/07 - The John Doe Manifesto By Michelle Malkin
Note: Earlier this month, six publicity-seeking imams filed a federal lawsuit against US Airways and the Metropolitan Airports Commission in Minneapolis/St. Paul. The Muslim clerics were removed from their flight last November and questioned for several hours after their suspicious behavior alarmed both passengers and crew members. Minneapolis Star Tribune columnist Katherine Kersten reported last week that the imams, advised by the grievance-mongers at the Council on American-Islamic Relations, also plan to sue "John Does" — innocent bystanders who alerted the authorities about their security concerns. Rep. Steve Pearce, R-N.M., has introduced legislation to protect John Does who report suspicious behavior from legal liability. The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty; talk show host Michael Reagan; Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, who heads the American Islamic Forum for Democracy; and Minnesota lawyer Gerry Nolting have all stepped forward to offer free representation to the imams' targets.
Dear Muslim Terrorist Plotter/Planner/Funder/Enabler/Apologist,
You do not know me. But I am on the lookout for you. You are my enemy. And I am yours.
I am John Doe.
I am traveling on your plane. I am riding on your train. I am at your bus stop. I am on your street. I am in your subway car. I am on your lift.
I am your neighbor. I am your customer. I am your classmate. I am your boss.
I am John Doe.
I will never forget the example of the passengers of United Airlines Flight 93 who refused to sit back on 9/11 and let themselves be murdered in the name of Islam without a fight.
I will never forget the passengers and crew members who tackled al Qaeda shoe-bomber Richard Reid on American Airlines Flight 63 before he had a chance to blow up the plane over the Atlantic Ocean.
I will never forget the alertness of actor James Woods, who notified a stewardess that several Arab men sitting in his first-class cabin on an August 2001 flight were behaving strangely. The men turned out to be 9/11 hijackers on a test run.
I will act when homeland security officials ask me to "report suspicious activity."
I will embrace my local police department's admonition: "If you see something, say something."
I am John Doe.
I will protest your Jew-hating, America-bashing "scholars."
I will petition against your hate-mongering mosque leaders.
I will raise my voice against your subjugation of women and religious minorities.
I will challenge your attempts to indoctrinate my children in our schools.
I will combat your violent propaganda on the Internet.
I am John Doe.
I will support law enforcement initiatives to spy on your operatives, cut off your funding and disrupt your murderous conspiracies.
I will oppose all attempts to undermine our borders and immigration laws.
I will resist the imposition of sharia principles and sharia law in my taxi cab, my restaurant, my community pool, the halls of Congress, our national monuments, the radio and television airwaves, and all public spaces.
I will not be censored in the name of tolerance.
I will not be cowed by your Beltway lobbying groups in moderates' clothing. I will not cringe when you shriek about "profiling" or "Islamophobia."
I will put my family's safety above sensitivity. I will put my country above multiculturalism.
I will not submit to your will. I will not be intimidated.
I am John Doe.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let the sparks fly... powderpuff answered on 03/31/07:Hello Itsdb,
I have never had much faith in John Doe, and I still don't.
Reading this, I'm thinking its time to go out an buy some guns (again), with lots of amo. Which do you think is best for self defense, a hand gun or a shot gun or both? There are a lot of John Does out there and when they all start pointing their fingers at each other.... well, I'd at least like to keep them cleared off my area.
Just trying to be sensible here, or die trying.
:(
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | MaggieB asked on 03/30/07 - Interesting Study! architect claims to solve pyramid secret By LAURENCE JOAN-GRANGE, Associated Press Writer
PARIS - A French architect claimed Friday to have uncovered the mystery about how Egypt's Great Pyramid of Khufu was built — with use of a spiral ramp to hoist huge stone blocks into place.
The construction of the Great Pyramid 4,500 years ago by Khufu, a ruler also known as Cheops, has long befuddled scientists as to how its 3 million stone blocks weighing 2.5 tons each were lifted into place.
Ending eight years of study on the subject, architect Jean-Pierre Houdin released his findings and a computerized 3-D mockup showing how workers would have erected the pyramid at Giza outside Cairo.
The most widespread theory had been that an outer ramp had been used by the Egyptians, who left few traces to help archeologists and other scientists decode the secret to the construction.
Houdin said he had taken into account the copper and stone tools available at the time, the granite and limestone blocks, the location of the pyramid and the strength and knowledge of the workers.
According to his theory — shown in a computer model available at http://www.3ds.com/khufu — the builders put up an outer ramp for the first 141 feet, then constructed an inner ramp in a corkscrew shape to complete the 446-feet structure.
Houdin said he based his theory partially on work by fellow Frenchman Gilles Dormion, who has studied pyramid construction for more than 20 years.
Houdin also postulated that King's Chamber, situated 43 meters above the pyramid's base and capped with granite ceilings, was hoisted into place through a system of counterweights.
Houdin said he plans to verify his theories through non-invasive tests on site
powderpuff answered on 03/31/07:Hello Maggie,
Yes, that is interesting! Thanks for sharing it.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Pete. asked on 03/31/07 - Toms777 "voice-over" On Tom's website he used to have an audio, welcoming message which started something like:
Hello, Welcome to my website.....
Tom denies this, anyone else remember it?
Pete powderpuff answered on 03/31/07:Hello Pete,
I remember it... It took me over a year to get the damn thing deleted off my computer even though I only looked at his site once. It was like a virus. I had to delete his welcome message over and over and over for months from my music player.
I don't recommend going to that site. I don't understand why his message was so hard to get off my computer, but I had the distinct impression that I was actually deleting it (I've had more success deleting viruses), but sure enough it came back over and over.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | hOPE12 asked on 03/31/07 - A picture says it all! Please read their story: As told by Magdalena Kusserow :
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The last photo of the entire Kusserow family.
![]()
Karl-Heinz Kusserow, a Jehovah's witness who was imprisoned by the Nazis because of his beliefs. He was a prisoner in the Dachau and Sachsenhausen concentration camps in Germany.
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Wolfgang Kusserow
Born Bochum, Germany
March 1, 1922
Wolfgang was beheaded by guillotine in Brandenburg Prison on March 28, 1942. He was 20 years old.
Last Letter of Wolfgang Kusserow
My dear Parents, and my dear brothers and sisters!
One more time I am given the opportunity to write you. Well, now I your third son and brother, shall leave you tomorrow early in the morning. Be not sad, the time will come when we shall all be together again. Those who will sow with tears, will reap with joy. "Those sowing seed with tears will reap even with a joyful cry."
How great the joy will be, when we see all of us again, although it is not easy now to overcome all this, but through belief and hope in the King and His Kingdom we conquer the worst. "For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God's love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom 8:38-39).
So we confidently look forward to the future.
Dear Papa, I am sorry that I was not allowed to visit you early in December. Exactly one year ago from tomorrow I saw you and Hildegard for the last time. In the meantime I have visited Lenchen. It was a special joy for me to see Mummy once again. Well, dear Mummy, Annemarie read me your dear letter during her visit... It is fine that you are busy in the baking factory (prison), so you are at least in a warm room and you have something to eat. Lenchen is now in the concentration camp.
Thus we are all separated, but everybody is steady. Yes we shall be rewarded for all of this. Read this in James 1:12: "Happy is the man who keeps on enduring trials, because on becoming approved he will receive the crown of life, which Jehovah promised to those who continue loving Him."
Dear Annemarie, once more special thanks to you for all your endeavors. May this our Lord reward you. I have you all constantly in mind. That was a life, when we were all at home together! - And suddenly separated!
Well Satan knows that his time is short. Therefore, he tries with all his power to lead astray from God men of good will, but he will have no success. We know that our faith will be victorious.
In this faith and this conviction I leave you.
A last greeting from this old world in the hope of seeing you again soon in a New World.
Your son and brother (signed) Wolfgang
******************************************************
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Wilhelm Kusserow
Born Bochum, Germany
September 4, 1914
According to his defense counsel, Wilhelm "died in accordance with his convictions." He was shot by a firing squad in Muenster Prison, on April 27, 1940.
My brother Wilhelm was to be executed by the Nazis the following morning. His crime? Conscientious objection to service in the German army. He was 25 years old and well aware of his impending execution by firing squad. During that evening of April 26, 1940, he wrote us the following farewell letter, after which he peacefully went to bed and slept soundly.
_____________________________________________________
“Dear parents, brothers, and sisters:
All of you know how much you mean to me, and I am repeatedly reminded of this every time I look at our family photo. How harmonious things always were at home. Nevertheless, above all we must love God, as our Leader [Führer] Jesus Christ commanded. If we stand up for him, he will reward us.”
In his final night our dear Wilhelm was thinking of us—his Christian parents and his five brothers and five sisters, an unusually large and harmonious family. Through the turmoils of time, as a family we have seen to it that our love for God has always come first.
________________________________________________
Hildegard Kusserow, a Jehovah's Witness, was imprisoned for four years in several concentration camps including Ravensbrueck. Germany, date uncertain.
__________
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
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Waltraud Kusserow, a Jehovah's Witness, was arrested several times for refusing to make the "Heil Hitler" salute. She spent two and a half years in prison. Germany, after 1945.
__________
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
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Hilda Kusserow, a Jehovah's Witness, was imprisoned for nine years for her religious beliefs. Eschborn, Germany, ca. 1979.
__________
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
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Franz Kusserow, a Jehovah's Witness, was imprisoned for nine years for his religious beliefs. Bad Lippspringe, Germany, ca. 1950.
__________
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
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______________________________________________________
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Helene Gotthold, a Jehovah's Witness, was beheaded for her religious beliefs on December 8, 1944, in Berlin. She is pictured with her children. Germany, June 25, 1936.
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
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Helene lived in Herne and Bochum in western Germany, where she was married to a coal miner who was unemployed between 1927 and 1938. Following their disillusionment with the Lutheran Church during World War I, Helene, who was a nurse, and her husband became Jehovah's Witnesses in 1926. Together, they raised their two children according to the teachings of the Scripture.
1933—39: Under the Nazis, Jehovah's Witnesses were persecuted for their missionary work and because they believed their sole allegiance was to God and His Commandments. Some of the Gotthold's neighbors refused to have anything to do with them. Helene's husband was arrested in 1936. After searching her house, the Gestapo arrested her in 1937; she was beaten with rods and lost her unborn baby. The court gave her an 18-month sentence.
1940—44: Helene and her husband were released and the Gotthold family was reunited. Helene and her husband were rearrested in February 1944. They were imprisoned in Essen, but when the prison was destroyed in an Allied bombing raid, they were transferred to a prison in Potsdam. On August 4, the People's Court sentenced Helene and five other Witnesses to death for illegally holding Bible meetings and undermining the nation's morale. Before her execution, Helene was allowed to write a letter to her husband and children.
Helene was executed by guillotine in Berlin's Ploetzensee Prison on December 8, 1944. Her family survived and resumed their Jehovah's Witness missionary work in Germany.
_____________________________________________________
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Gregor Wohlfahrt
Born Koestenberg-Velden, Austria
July 24, 1921
Gregor was the second of six children born to Catholic parents in a village in the part of Austria known as Carinthia. His father was a farmer and quarryman. Disillusioned with Catholicism, his parents became Jehovah's Witnesses and raised their children according to that religion. As a boy, Gregor loved mountain climbing and skiing.
1933-39: Gregor attended school and worked as a waiter. The situation for Jehovah's Witnesses worsened after Germany annexed Austria in March 1938; Witnesses refused to swear an oath of loyalty to Hitler, believing that their sole allegiance was to God and His laws. On September 1, 1939, the day that Germany invaded Poland, Gregor's father was arrested for opposing military service and executed three months later.
1940-42: Like his older brother, Franz, Gregor refused to be inducted into the German armed forces, following the Witnesses' belief that military service violated God's fifth commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." Gregor was arrested. He was brought in chains before a military court in Berlin and sentenced to death on December 18, 1941. For Gregor, his father's arrest and execution two years earlier on similar charges only strengthened his resolve to stand by his faith.
Gregor was executed by guillotine in Berlin's Ploetzensee Prison on March 14, 1942. He was 20 years old.
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Willibald Wohlfahrt
Born Koestenberg-Velden, Austria
December 15, 1927
Willibald was the youngest of six children born to Catholic parents in a village in the part of Austria known as Carinthia. Disillusioned with Catholicism, his father and mother became Jehovah's Witnesses when Willibald was an infant, and they raised their children in their new faith. His father became the leader of the local Jehovah's Witness congregation.
1933-39: Willibald lived in a beautiful area near lakes and mountains. The Wohlfahrts were active in Jehovah's Witness missionary work, even though the Austrian government was opposed to the teachings of the faith. In 1938 the Nazis took over. Willibald's father was arrested on September 1, 1939, for opposing military service; three months later he was executed.
1940-45: Willibald's oldest brother was sent to a concentration camp and his brother Gregor was executed for refusing to join the German military. When Willibald was 14, he and his remaining sisters and brother were taken away by the Germans. Willibald was sent to a Catholic convent in Landau, where a Nazi instructor tried to indoctrinate him. He beat Willibald when he refused to salute Hitler. When Allied armies approached, Willibald was sent to the battle front to dig trenches for the German home defense.
Willibald was killed in 1945 while on the work detail digging trenches in western Germany. He was 17 years old.
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Prisoners during a roll call at the Buchenwald concentration camp. Their uniforms bear classifying triangular badges and identification numbers. Buchenwald, Germany, 1938-1941.
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CLASSIFICATION SYSTEM IN NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMPS
Among the first victims of persecution in Nazi Germany were political opponents--primarily Communists, Social Democrats, and trade unionists. Jehovah's Witnesses refused to serve in the German army or take an oath of obedience to Adolf Hitler and consequently were also targeted.
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Aart Bouter, a Jehovah's Witness, was arrested by the Dutch police and deported to Sachsenhausen concentration camp. The Netherlands, date uncertain.
__________
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
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Klaas de Vries, a Dutch Jehovah's Witness who was deported to the Sachsenhausen concentration camp in Germany. The Netherlands, date uncertain.
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United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
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**************************************************
I COULD FILL BOOKS WITH THESE ACCOUNT AND PICTURES, NOT FROM JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES PUBLICATION OR THE WATCHTOWER ORGANIZATION BUT FROM HISTORICAL FACTS.
THIS SAYS IT AND I DO NOT NEED TO SAY ANYMORE.
Take care,
Hope12
powderpuff answered on 03/31/07:Hello Hope,
Thanks for posting this. Who would have guessed it after reading the 'true stories' about JWs and Hitler presented by some others on the board. How true can "THE" *ture story* be when it leaves out large portions of relevant facts? I was suspicious from the first time I read the letter sent to Hilter from JWs pleading for their safety, as if a letter from anyone pleading for saftey from a monster like Hitler could be used as proof of an alliance?!
You don't need to keep defending yourself against claims that are not true. This is not a court of law or even a court of public opinion. Its only answerway!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | MaggieB asked on 03/29/07 - Seriously, we need some laughs. These are old but still good.
One day, a man came home and was greeted by his wife dressed in a very
Sexy nightie. "Tie me up," she purred, "and you can do anything you want."
So he tied her up and went golfing.
**************************************************
A woman came home, screeching her car into the driveway, and ran into
the house. She slammed the door and shouted at the top of her lungs,
"Honey, pack your bags. I won the lottery!"
The husband said, "Oh my God! What should I pack, beach stuff or
mountain stuff?" "Doesn't matter," she said. "Just get out."
**************************************************
Marriage is a relationship in which one person is always right, and the
other is a husband.
**************************************************
A Polish immigrant went to the DMV to apply for a driver's license.
First, of course, he had to take an eye sight test. The optician showed him a
card with the letters:
'C Z W I X N O S T A C Z.'
"Can you read this?" the optician asked.
"Read it?" the Polish guy replied, "I know the guy."
**************************************************
Mother Superior called all the nuns together and said to them, "I must
tell you all something. We have a case of gonorrhea in the convent."
"Thank God," said an elderly nun at the back. "I'm so tired of
chardonnay."
**************************************************
A wife was making a breakfast of fried eggs for her husband.
Suddenly, her husband burst into the kitchen. "Careful," he said,
"CAREFUL! Put in some more butter! Oh my GOD!
You're cooking too many at once. TOO MANY! Turn them! TURN
THEM NOW! We need more butter. Oh my GOD! WHERE are
we going to get MORE BUTTER? They're going to STICK!
Careful . CAREFUL! I said be CAREFUL! You NEVER listen
to me when you're cooking! Never! Turn them! Hurry up! Are you CRAZY?
Have you LOST your mind? Don't forget to salt them.
You know you always forget to salt them. Use the salt.
USE THE SALT! THE SALT!"
The wife stared at him. "What in the world is wrong with you?
You think I don't know how to fry a couple of eggs?"
The husband calmly replied, "I just wanted to show you
what it feels like when I'm driving."
**************************************************
Fifty-one years ago, Herman James, a North Carolina mountain man, was
drafted by the Army. On his first day in basic training, the Army
issued ! him a comb. That afternoon the Army barber sheared off all his hair.
On his second day, the Army issued Herman a toothbrush.
That afternoon the Army dentist yanked seven of his teeth.
On the third day, the Army issued him a jock strap
The Army has been looking for Herman for 51 years.
powderpuff answered on 03/30/07:Hello Maggie,
I really like the one about the husband showing his wife how it feels when he is driving. :D
Thanks for the laughs!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | jjgoss asked on 03/30/07 - ..Call Me Infidel: An Ex-Muslim Speaks Out...... ..(CBN)A shocking new documentary is calling attention to the very real threat of terror attacks against the U.S.
It's called, Obsession: Radical Islam's War against the West.
Canadian film-maker Raphael Shore produced the movie. He believes that Americans and Westerners must comprehend how radical Muslims view this war.
"'Obsession' is an attempt to reveal and educate the American public on what the aims, the goals and the strategies of the radical Islamists are," Shore said.
That is something that author Nonie Darwish understands very well. Darwish, the author of "Now They Call Me Infidel", grew up in an Egyptian family in the Gaza Strip.
She learned firsthand what it was like to live in an atmosphere where jihad ruled.
But Darwish became disillusioned and left the Islamic faith, later founding the anti-terrorist, pro-Israel group Arabs for Israel.
She states her mission is to "promote reconciliation, acceptance and understanding" between Israelis and Arabs.
Although there have been death threats leveled against her, that has not stopped her from speaking out against terrorism.
Born in Cairo, Egypt, Darwish moved to Gaza in the 1950s when her father, Lt. General Mustafa Hafez, was sent by Gamal Abdel Nasser to serve as commander of the Egyptian Army Intelligence in Gaza, which was then occupied by Egypt.
Hafez founded the Fedayeen, armed Palestinian militia who launched raids across Israel's southern border.
In July 1956, when Nonie was only 8 years old, her father became the first target of the Israeli Defence Forces, killed in response to Fedayeen attacks. He became a martyr, or "shahid."
Afterwards, during a speech, Nasser vowed that all of Egypt would take revenge for Hafez's death.
Nasser asked Darwish and her siblings, "Which one of you will avenge your father's death by killing Jews?"
Darwish explained, "I always blamed Israel for my father's death, because that's what I was taught. I never looked at why Israel killed my father. They killed my father because the Fedayeen were killing Israelis. They killed my father because when I was growing up, we had to recite poetry pledging jihad against Israel. We would have tears in our eyes, pledging that we wanted to die. I speak to people who think there was no terrorism against Israel before the ཿ war. How can they deny it? My father died in it."
In 1978, Darwish moved to the United States with her husband, and eventually became a U.S. citizen.
Living in the free atmosphere of America, she began to realize the horrific impact and evil indoctrination that she and all Arab children are subjected to.
She no longer practices Islam because she feels that even mosques in the U.S. have a radical, anti-American and an anti-peace message.
About a year after the 9/11 attacks, Darwish began writing columns about radical Islam and the culture of hate and violence upon which it thrives....
...Any comments??????........ powderpuff answered on 03/30/07:Hello jjgoss,
Yes, and a couple questions. Did she give up religion all together or did she convert to another religion and if so, which one? Did any of her siblings take up the cause to avenge her father's death by killing Jews?
It is interesting how easy it is to brainwash children. Naturally, they believe what they are taught by their caregivers.. Very young children think grown-ups know everything!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | tropicalstorm asked on 03/29/07 - reply to circumcision People said that it made a difference when AIDS first 'started'
Then they said it was not true, which I believe.
From what I know, one time it was a state thing in most states that all babies get circumcised unless you requested otherwise. Over have of the males in the USA are circumcised
Also much AIDS is gotten from 'dirty' needles
Infant Circumcised In US Hospitals )
This is the statistics on AIDS according to the Center for Disease Control
CDC on AIDS )
powderpuff answered on 03/29/07:Hello TS,
I think circumcision to help prevent the spread of AIDS is a dumb idea. When my sons where born I wasn't given a choice ... well, my choices were: If you have a girl it will cost $____, but if it is a boy it will cost $25 more because he will require circumcision. I was too young and dumb to know any better.
There are other ways to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS besides mutilation of the genitals!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | jjgoss asked on 03/29/07 - ..Circumcision Recommended to Fight HIV.. ..GENEVA (AP) - U.N. health agencies recommended Wednesday that heterosexual men undergo circumcision because of "compelling" evidence that it can reduce their chances of contracting HIV by up to 60 percent.
But World Health Organization and UNAIDS experts said men need to be aware that circumcision is only partial protection against the virus and must be used with other measures.
"We must be clear," said Catherine Hankins of UNAIDS. "Male circumcision does not provide complete protection against HIV."
Studies suggest 5.7 million new cases of HIV infection and 3 million deaths over 20 years could be prevented by male circumcision in sub-Saharan Africa, the agencies said.
Still, men and women who consider male circumcision as an HIV preventive method need to continue using other forms of protection such as male and female condoms, abstinence, delaying the start of sexual activity and reducing the number of sexual partners, she said.
Otherwise, they could develop a false sense of security and engage in high-risk behaviors that could undermine the partial protection provided by male circumcision, the agencies said.
Men also should be warned that they are at a higher risk of being infected with HIV if they resume sex before their wound has healed. Likewise an HIV-positive man can more easily pass on the disease to his partner if the wound is still unhealed.
The recommendations were based on a meeting earlier this month in Montreux, Switzerland, where experts discussed three trials - in Kenya, Uganda and South Africa - that produced "strong evidence" of the risk reduction resulting from heterosexual male circumcision.
"Based on the evidence presented, which was considered to be compelling, experts attending the consultation recommended that male circumcision now be recognized as an additional important intervention to reduce the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men," a joint statement said.
The agencies said much depends on the situation in a given country, and little general benefit will result in countries where the HIV epidemic is concentrated among sex workers, injecting drug users or men who have sex with men.
The public health impact is likely to be most rapid where there is a high rate of HIV infection among men having sex with women.
"It was therefore recommended that countries with high prevalence, generalized heterosexual HIV epidemics that currently have low rates of male circumcision consider urgently scaling up access to male circumcision services," the agencies said.
More study is needed to determine whether male circumcision will cut the transmission of HIV to women. More study also is required to find out whether male circumcision will reduce HIV infection in homosexual intercourse, it said, but it said promoting circumcision of HIV-positive men was not recommended.
"The recommendations represent a significant step forward in HIV prevention," said Dr. Kevin De Cock, director of WHO's HIV/AIDS department. "Countries with high rates of heterosexual HIV infection and low rates of male circumcision now have an additional intervention which can reduce the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men."
Increasing male circumcision in areas where it the procedure is rare will result in immediate benefit to the men circumcised, but it will take years before there will be an impact on the epidemic.
Although the rate of circumcision varies considerably from country to country, globally an estimated 665 million men, or 30 percent of men in the world, are circumcised, the statement said.
The agencies said the risks involved in male circumcision are generally low, but can be serious if the operation is performed in unhygienic settings by poorly trained, ill-equipped health workers.
Priority should be given to providing circumcision to age groups at highest risk of acquiring HIV because it will have the most immediate impact on the disease. But, it said, circumcising younger males also will have a public health impact over the longer term.
It gave no estimate how much providing the service would cost, but said more money would be needed, but that donors should regard it as "an important, evidence-based intervention."....
...what are your views on circumcision????......... powderpuff answered on 03/29/07:Hello jjgoss,
I read an article not so long ago with statistics showing a sharp increase in HIV infections among women in areas where the men are being circumcised as HIV prevention.
Seems there are pros and cons, so I think it is a matter of personal choice with no hard evidence that circumcision works better than good hygiene and safe sex practices.
Aside from the idea that circumcision can/might help stop the spread of HIV, I don't like the idea. I think that extra skin is there for a good reason and I don't even like to think of chopping it off!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | richturner asked on 03/28/07 - Ethics Versus Metaphysics Since this board has had considerable discussion of morality, I would like to raise this question: Is it possible to have an ethical code without subscribing to a specific religion, or is a religion (such as Christianity) the only possible basis for creating a code of ethics? Can one hold to and practice a code of ethics even when one professes to have no definitive answers to metaphysical questions? Are those whose conclusions about metaphysical questions are essentially "I don't know" incapable of having moral and ethical principles? powderpuff answered on 03/28/07:Hello richturner,
Since one can hold to and pretend to (or even seriously) practice any number of specific religions, it would be my guess that the opposite can also be true. One can have a good ethical code without an assoication with any specific religion.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Jesushelper76 asked on 03/28/07 - To Peddler: Response to your Clarification First of all Peddler.
I read the bible daily, pray daily and I know the real true Jesus.
As far as you are concerned it is you and tom against the athiest.
Your not doing anything that God said for you to bring people and others to know God. Your actually pushing people further away from God.
Everything you said in your clarification has nothing to do with me. I never said any of that. Not once did I say any of that but the way you are writing. Your accusing me of saying those things and agreeing with those things. Which is the furthest from the truth.
You need to wake up and actually practice what God says is important not what you say is important.
Good day. powderpuff answered on 03/28/07:Hello Jesushelper,
I think where most people go wrong is in thinking the Christianity Question Board would supply a non-judgmental, open and supportive atmosphere. A place where people could go for support and/or answers about Christianity without fear of being judged and attacked for what they believe or who they are. That is just wishful thinking since we can only control ourselves.
Here you find Atheists and Humanists and other non-Christians jerking the chains of Christians, as if, that makes them better people ... And you will find a lot of Christians attacking other Christians for minor differences in their beliefs and Bible interpretations. Not to mention there are many who post twisted words or ideas of others, suspicions as facts, and make all kinds of nasty comments in rebuttles to nasty comments, as if that makes anyone better than anyone else.... sheesh!
News Flash: There are no perfect people. No perfect Christians. No perfect Atheists. No perfect Deists. No perfect Buddhists. No perfect people who stand for peace. No perfectly hateful people either! Likewise, there are no perfectly loving people. Fact is people are human and subject to conflicts between emotions and reasoning, good and bad, right and wrong, wants and needs, etc.
We can open our minds and push ourselves beyond our comfort zones or we can build walls to seal up our comfort zones, insulating us from outside ideas, influences, and stressors. We can throw rocks from behind our wall and feel relatively safe, but is that any way for a Christian to spread the message of salvation?
For Christians who feel it is our duty to share our belief system with others it only stands to reason that to do so, one must become tolerant of others to begin with. If you want to be effective in spreading your message you have to tear down the wall, open up your mind showing your acceptance of those who believe differently, And tolerate them with LOVE. Nobody likes to be judged and Christians are taught that when you judge another, you will be judged in the same manner.
Food for thought: Love works better than hate in attracting others. Deeds speak louder than words. When someone makes a hostile claim against you, the burden of proof rests on their shoulders.
Hope that helps
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | jjgoss asked on 03/24/07 - ..Are good values good enough???.... ..W. Bennett points out in his best seller, The Book of Virtues, that one can have good values without having faith in God..Many atheists, agnostics, humanists and secularists also practise honesty, respect for others, justice and tolerance too. Having good values doesn't make one Christian....
....Good values are not good enough. Our troubled world and disintegrating families don't need human solutions only, We need God's values, not just human attempts to be good... We must recognise that no matter how good our values are, they cannot reconcile us to God by somehow making us acceptable to Him. Only Jesus Christ, the Way and the Truth, can do that....For Christians, Christ's role in our lives is indispensable. He must reign supreme in the very core of our lives and in all of our actions. He must be the originator, the standard for everything right and good......~D.Taylor
...Any comments???...... powderpuff answered on 03/25/07:Hello jjgoss,
If a person chooses not to be Christian, good values are good enough! Good people make a difference!! In the end let God sort it out.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | HANK1 asked on 03/24/07 - LEAVING ILLINOIS!
Time for Leslie and I to leave for Scottsdale, my friends. Flying out of Lambert Field in St. Louis. You'll hear from me at anytime. I have a laptop. Take care and keep your noses clean. Can't wait to get up 40,000 feet. All of you are invited to our wedding on Tuesday, the 27th. And away we go ... to our permanent home.
HANK
powderpuff answered on 03/24/07:Hello Hank,
Wow, thats quite a weather change! Enjoy your honeymoon!!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | hOPE12 asked on 03/24/07 - Whose side is God on? Hello Everyone,
This is to help us really reason on war and to help some face the reality of life and justice, and to separate a loving God from what some might feel is a God who love war.
******************************************************
Columnist C. L. Sulzberger said in 1976: “It is a dismal truth that probably half or more of the wars now being fought around the world are either openly religious conflicts or involved with religious disputes.”
Point here to think about. (God did not make the different religions of this world, man did. Having said that, we must conclude that a religious war is not from God but from the people who are part a religious group).
In view of what John 13:34,35 says as a command to those who are truly followers of Jesus and who claim serve God, how would you answer this question when it comes to war, and killing in the name of God. “Whose side is God on?”
Those claiming to be Christian’s would claim that ‘God is on their side.” Yet the other side would claim that God is on their side. Yet in view of the command found at John 13:34.35, in war, is God truly on the side of those who are killing others?
. As Ernest Lefever, president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington, D.C., put it: “If you feel God is on your side, you can justify any atrocity.”—U.S.News & World Report.
The question then arises: When it comes to war, does God really take sides?
Please do not quote scripture of Bible wars and wars the Israelite’s fought. They are not the same as the unjust wars of today. Also, God as supreme being had the right in Bible times to declare war. God can read the heart, Man can not. So, if your country commands you to go and kill another, and yet God’s command is to not kill and Jesus even said to love other’s, “Whose side does God take?” Is God partial as to who is better and they should win at all kind of horrendous killings and torture??
Or do you believe that God is on the side of people who really love one another?”
What say you??? Please give reason for your answer.
Take care,
Hope12
powderpuff answered on 03/24/07:Hello Hope,
God would not be on any side in any war. I don't think God would "takes sides" so to speak in any kind of conflict between people. People are responsible for their own behavior and that includes going to war, or killing for their country, murder, or self defense (or any other act that results in the death of another). I think God sides with WHAT is right, not who is right.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | tropicalstorm asked on 03/24/07 - ROTFLMAOLOLOLOL IDENTITY CRISIS? IDENTITY THEFT? REALIST? BUT WHY O WHY CAN'T HANK JUST BE HANK????
PrinceHassim answered on 03/23/07:
I am a realist and say this is guesswork.
HANK
OH, and since this is the Christian board and requires a Christian related question!!!
What role play games do Christians have since
Dungeons and Dragons is said to be occult?
Could this be the game Hank is working on -
a role play game for Christians?
Don't expect to get rich on it!!
HANK Let us know when you are going to stay and JUST
be HANK so we can have a BIG welcome home party!
powderpuff answered on 03/24/07:Hello TS,
This game has been played before, and it is a fun game...... I always get a laugh when someone signs in pseudonym for closing.
Anyway, did you say party? I agree we should have parties to celebrate everything :)
Management
| | Question/Answer | | Pete. asked on 03/23/07 - Heaven What do you expect to feel, as Christians, when you or your loved one is diagnosed with a terminal disease powderpuff answered on 03/24/07:Hello Pete,
As you know, my son died rather suddenly after an unexpected accident at work. He went to work one morning and before the next day he was dead. As a Christian parent I was suddenly not only mourning the death of my first born child, I was also worried sick about the disposition of his soul. I came to the conclusion that it is ridiculous to think that a loving God would sentence a person to an eternity of suffering in hell for a few mistakes they made during their brief life on earth.
I refuse to let worry or sorrow rule the rest of my life. Why worry about the future or cry about the past? That does nothing but drive negative thoughts around inside your head. Live for today because that is where it is at! You can still choose to be a good person no matter what you believe about God. Or, maybe you can't....
I'm still living and what I use to get me through is trust in my self control. I might make mistakes along the way but I know I am not a 'bad' person. We all live and we all die. I've found that for myself, I believe I am much better to not worry about things that will happen after I die or what will become of my loved ones who have died before me. This is the life I have right now and this is the life I have the ability to enjoy!- or suffer... To let it go, to hang on to what once was or what might be in some other lifetime is a waste of the LIFE I HAVE RIGHT NOW.
I know how bad it hurts to lose a child. I decided to let go of my fears about heaven and hell, and not to let death ruin the rest of this life for me. | | Question/Answer | | tropicalstorm asked on 03/23/07 - Christian answer to atheism
Since the devil hates people, those who believe him will eventually see things the same way as he does.
How can an atheist believe in the devil?
powderpuff answered on 03/23/07:Hello TS,
Why do you think Atheists believe in the devil?
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | MarySusan asked on 03/23/07 - Science Proves Conclusively-No Vampires This is the proof that there are absolutely no such thing as a human vampire:
"If a single vampire fed on a single human in the first month, this would create two vampires -- and decrease the human population by one, leaving it at 536,870,911 - 1 = 536,870,910. In the second month, those two vampires would each feed, transforming two people into vampires -- so you get four vampires and a human population of 536,870,911 - 3 = 536,870,908. So you can see where this is headed. The vampire population is increasing in a geometric progression, and the population of humans is similarly decreasing -- and at that rate, the authors calculate, the entire human population would be transformed into vampires in only 30 months. QED!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Can put that myth to rest!!!!
Comments? powderpuff answered on 03/23/07:Hello MarySusan,
I guess it all depends on what the meaning of "vampire" is. I have a nephew who insists that a modern day vampire is someone who 'drains' others either emotionally or financially or any other way that someone could be exploited. I think he knows what he is talking about since he identifies himself as one of those....
powderpuff
....I still love him though :) | | Question/Answer | | tropicalstorm asked on 03/23/07 - rat poisoning ALBANY, N.Y. - Rat poison was found in the pet food suspected of causing kidney failure that killed at least 16 cats and dogs, but scientists still don't know how it got there, state officials said Friday. The toxin was identified as aminopterin, which is used to kill rats in some countries, state Agriculture Commissioner Patrick Hooker said.
Aminopterin is not registered for killing rodents in the United States, according to the
Environmental Protection Agency, though it is used as a cancer drug. State officials wouldn't speculate on how the toxin got into Menu Foods' now-recalled pet food but said no criminal investigations had been launched.
Scientists at the New York State Animal Health Diagnostic Center at Cornell and at the New York State Food Laboratory tested three cat food samples provided by Menu Foods and found Aminopterin in two of them. Hooker said they would test individual components of the pet food, as well. The early test results were released to give veterinarians a better idea of how to treat sick animals.
"Any amount of this product is too much in food," Hooker said.
Aminopterin, also used as a cancer drug, is highly toxic in high doses. It inhibits the growth of malignant cells and suppresses the immune system.
In dogs and cats, it can cause kidney failure, according to Donald Smith, dean of Cornell University's College of Veterinary Medicine.
The
Food and Drug Administration has said the investigation into the pet deaths was focusing on wheat gluten in the pet food. Wheat gluten itself would not cause kidney failure, but the common ingredient could have been contaminated, the FDA said.
Bob Rosenberg, senior vice president of government affairs for the National Pest Management Association, said he had never heard of the substance before Friday.
"It would make no sense to spray a crop itself with rodenticide," Rosenberg said, though he said grain shippers typically put bait stations around the perimeter of their storage facilities.
The pet deaths led to a recall of 60 million cans and pouches of pet food produced by Menu Foods and sold throughout North America under 95 brand names. There have been several reports of kidney failure in pets that ate the recalled brands, and the company has confirmed the deaths of 15 cats and one dog.
The company, already facing lawsuits, planned a media teleconference for later Friday, a spokesman said. It is majority owned by Menu Foods Income Fund of Streetsville.
A complete list of the recalled products along with product codes, descriptions and production dates was posted online by Menu Foods and is available at http://tinyurl.com/2pn6mm. The company also designated two phone numbers that pet owners could call for information: (866) 463-6738 and (866) 895-2708.
----
Why are we hearing increasingly more stories of food poisoning and so forth Chi Chi's, Sheetz, spinach,
Are we getting more careless? Filthier?
If you suspect food poisoning these are some things
you can keep on hand to take ---as you call 911
food poisoning
• Activated Charcoal
2 caps 2 to 3 times daily for up to a week. Activated charcoal is readily available in most pharmacies or grocery stores, and certainly in health food stores. It is not anti-microbial, but will help absorb the toxins created by the intestinal infection. It also helps to absorb the not-so-lovely odors that sometimes accompany rectal evacuations.
• Goldenseal (Hydrastis Canadensis)
Take 20 drops of tincture or glycerite twice daily, or 3-4 caps twice daily. Goldenseal is one of the best disinfectants of mucous membranes. Your entire digestive tract, along with the lining of the bladder and the eyes, is a mucous membrane. This versatile herb is very bitter, so I prefer the glycerite form, especially for use with children.
• Mint (Mentha Piperita)
Drink 3 to 4 cups of strong tea daily or take 2-3 enteric-coated caps of mint oil twice daily. The common mint, distinguishable from other herbs by its square, not rounded, stem, not only tastes delightful, but also is antispasmodic (soothes cramps), anti-emetic (reduces nausea and vomiting) and carminative (aides digestion). Almost always available, mint is also cooling so can help bring down a fever, even when taken as a hot tea.
• Slippery elm (Ulmus Fulvus)
Slippery elm can be found in many herbal teas and throat lozenges. It is also available as a loose herb in most health food stores, or you may find it in capsule form. Take up to 8 capsules daily for a few days, or drink 3-4 cups of tea brewed with 1 tablespoon of herb to 1 cup boiling water. Slippery elm is very soothing to an irritated digestive system (and throat).
For Food poisoning, diarrhea, ulcers
1 cup boiling water to ½ cup of peppermint leaves, steep 10 minutes strain & sip
Goldenseal root tea (Cherokee Indians)
powderpuff answered on 03/23/07:Hello TS,
My daughter's kitty just died about 3 weeks ago. He had been sick and was treated with surgery at the vet and was recovering, but just as he was almost completely recovered, he took a sudden turn for the worst and had to be put down after giving up eating completely for a week. She tried force feeding him for days but that became like torture for the poor kitty. I'm going to ask her tomorrow if she thinks it might have been the cat food.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Pete. asked on 03/23/07 - Heaven What do you expect to feel, as Christians, when you or your loved one is diagnosed with a terminal disease powderpuff answered on 03/23/07:Hello Pete,
I expect Christians feel pretty much the same things anyone else feels when given a death sentence. The grieving process is an individual thing but most people feel the full range of emotions related to grief when dealing with a devestating event such as death, including Christians. Christians might however have an additional peculiar emotional experience related to how they preceive their spiritual standing or their level of spiritual maturity. Each person has to come to their own understanding and acceptence of life/death issues.
Do as good as you can and if your best isn't good enough, then, oh well ~you've got eternity to think about it.
;)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | MarySusan asked on 03/22/07 - Doris Starts Back to Work Next Week :):):):):):):)
There are a lot worse things than a dusty apartment with teensy cobwebs here and there and with outlines of dried cat vomit on the floor. :P
So, she's really slow with the housework, but Doris is a jewel of an individual; one of the best individuals and Christians I ever met, and that's saying something. I've known lots of fine people in my life. :):):)
Hope you have good things happening in your life next week!
Regards,
Mary Sue powderpuff answered on 03/22/07:Hello MarySusan,
That is good news! You know, you could always ask for someone extra to do spring cleaning! Enjoy your friend Doris in your nicely cleaned apartment. That should be a relief to both of you :)
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | peddler7118 asked on 03/22/07 - Is Asking People to Kill Themselves to be Admired? Recently the local so-called Deist said this to me:
How many times can you shoot yourself in the head before you fall over.....next time do BOTH of us a favor and aim the gun at your mouth :) :) :) :) :)
Since is is respected by so many of you as an expert in Christianity and the kind
of man you would like to emulate I was wondering is this is funny to you as well?
powderpuff answered on 03/22/07:Hello peddler,
My only advice: don't read it. If you know ahead of time that what you are about to read is going to be in bad taste and you choose to read it anyway.... well then it is up to you to decide how it effects you and if you are going to react or not affectively.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Dark_Crow asked on 03/22/07 - what is superstition?.........................
I was thumbing through old stuff when I came across this, which I posted 11/09/02. I was wondering about how the responses may be now.
One of the top complaints against spirituality by non-believers is that it is superstitious, dealing in ghosts and phantoms where there is no empirical evidence or rational argument for the existence of such phenomena. This stereotype has arisen in part because of superstitious religious traditions, in part because of the portrayal of spirituality in the mass media, and in part because some spiritual people are indeed superstitious, just like any segment of the population. But what is superstition? As I understand it, superstition is erroneous or irrational belief that arises out of ignorance or fear. It is generally based on a flawed understanding of causation versus correlation, and it is often maintained in spite of evidence to the contrary. With that said, I contend that total disbelief in all spiritual phenomena is far more superstitious than the contrary position. There have been reports of spiritual phenomena - psychic abilities, auric vision, communication with non-corporeal entities, etc.- since the dawn of human history. While in some cases, some particular contacts with the spirit world are not easily verifiable, this does not mean that they cannot be verified or that they do not exist. It simply means that they sometimes pose a challenge in terms of methodology; this is not a cue to abandon the most clear and reasonable means of understanding and explaining the fundamentals of existence. In the end, I place my faith in empiricism and our capacity for reason rather than the unshakeable belief of the materialist that there is no such thing as 'spirit.' I have experienced many spiritual phenomena, and you most likely have too regardless of how non-spiritually you may have chosen to view such experiences. The basic scientific evidence for spiritual phenomena is there; the question that science now offers us is not whether or not spirit exists, but rather what its exact nature may be.
powderpuff answered on 03/22/07:Hello Dark Crow,
I guess it could be classified as an anxiety disorder: "As I understand it, superstition is erroneous or irrational belief that arises out of ignorance or fear".
Perhaps science will one day prove that there really is a spiritual phenomena and that it is as individual as each of us are unique?
Spirituality is something that should be enjoyed :)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | timelessone asked on 03/22/07 - Other Points of view - BUDDHISM - based on the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama Buddha
Quotations:
"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity."
-- Albert Einstein
"The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways.
The greatest magic is transmuting the passions.
The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances."
-- ATISHA
Atisha
The great Indian Buddhist Master Atisha (982-1054 AD) reintroducing pure Buddhism into Tibet.
Although Buddhism had been introduced into Tibet some two hundred years earlier by Padmasambhava and Shantarakshita, Buddhist practice in the country had largely been destroyed during the anti-Buddhist purges of the Tibetan king, Lang Darma (circa 836 AD), a follower of Bön, the pre-Buddhist religion of Tibet.
Invited by Jangchub Ö, a ruler of Ngari in western Tibet, Atisha was asked to present a Dharma that everybody could follow and that would show how all the paths of Sutra and Tantra could be practiced together.
"If you live the sacred and despise the ordinary, you are still bobbing in the ocean of delusion."
-- Lin-Chi
Lin-Chi
Venerable Master Lin Chi Yi-Sen founded one of the most influential school of Buddhism after the Sixth Patriarch Hui Neng. For centuries his followers were the leading Ch'an (Zen) Buddhist masters of China. In the twelfth century, his teachings spread to Japan and formed the Rinzai School of Buddhism.
"Aware of the suffering caused by the destruction of life, I vow to cultivate compassion and learn ways to protect lives of people, animals, plants, and minerals. I am determined not to kill, not to let others kill, and not to condone any killing in the world, in my thinking, and in my way of life.” --
--Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh.
THICH NHAT HANH
Vietnamese Buddhist monk. During the war in Vietnam, he worked tirelessly for reconciliation between North and South Vietnam. His lifelong efforts to generate peace moved Martin Luther King, Jr. to nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1967. He lives in exile in a small community in France where he teaches, writes, gardens, and works to help refugees worldwide. He has conducted many mindfulness retreats in Europe and North America helping veterans, children, environmentalists, psychotherapists, artists and many thousands of individuals seeking peace in their hearts, and in their world.
Overview:
Buddhism is the fourth largest religion in the world, being exceeded in numbers only by Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. It was founded in Northern India by the first known Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama. In 535 BCE, he attained enlightenment and assumed the title Lord Buddha - one who has awakened.
As Buddhism expanded across Asia, it evolved into two main forms, which evolved largely independently from each other with two more forms initiated by isolation and modernism.
Theravada Buddhism occasionally spelled Therevada) has been the dominant school of Buddhism in most of Southeast Asia since the thirteenth century, with the establishment of the monarchies in Thailand, Burma, Cambodia and Laos.
Mahayana Buddhism sometimes called Northern Buddhism is largely found in China, Japan, Korea, Tibet and Mongolia.
Tibetan Buddhism, which developed in isolation from Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism because of the remoteness of Tibet.
Modern Buddhism has emerged as a truly international movement. It started as an attempt to produce a single form of Buddhism, without local accretions, that all Buddhists could embrace.
- purpose of this is to present other points of views - Christianity and Atheisism are not the only religious philosophies in the world.
I am not a practicing Buddhist, but I am tolerant of other spiritual views - are you ????
PS: Nasty insulting remarks will be ignored.
TLO powderpuff answered on 03/22/07:Hello timelessone,
Yes I am tolerant of other spiritual views. I'm curious about other spiritual views as well. I have learned enough to know experience is a good teacher :)
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | jjgoss asked on 03/22/07 - ..Questions for Jehovah’s Witnesses.. ..With due respect, the JW should try to answer the following questions so that others would not misunderstand them....
1. The Watchtower organization has claimed to be the prophet of God (The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, p. 197) yet it has made numerous false prophecies. The excuse given for their false prophecies has been to quote Proverbs 4:18 which says, "But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established." Whether or not the "light gets brighter" or not does not change the fact that the Watchtower made false prophecies. The Bible says in Deut. 18:20-22, "‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak..."
If the NWT condemns false prophesying and states that it is proof that God is not speaking through that prophet, then doesn’t this prove that the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is not speaking for God?
2. Why does the New World Translation insert the word Jehovah in the New Testament when there are absolutely no Greek manuscripts that have it in there? Isn’t this playing with the text?
3. In the book, "Salvation" by J. F. Rutherford, 1939, p. 311, (a Watchtower Publication) it says, "At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth-Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean "House of the Princes" and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth-Sarim is vested in the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on earth [italic added]. . . . while the unbelievers have mocked concerning it and spoken contemptuously of it, yet it stands there as a testimony to Jehovah’s name; and if and when the princes do return and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth-Sarim."
This place was sold in 1942 after Rutherford’s death. Therefore, it appears that the faithful were misled since the house was to "be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes." Is this really a testimony to Jehovah’s name as it said? How can it be if they sold the house?
4. The Watchtower organization states that Jesus died on a stake, not a cross. The typical Watchtower representation of this is with Jesus on a single vertical stake, hands over his head with a single nail in his wrists. If Jesus were crucified on a cross, then two nails would be necessary, one in each hand. How then does the Watchtower organization handle the verse in the Bible that states that Jesus had nails (plural) in his hands: "Consequently the other disciples would say to him: "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them: "unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will certainly not believe" (John 20:25, NWT).
Jesus had one nail in each hand. This is made clear by the use of the word ‘nails’ not ‘nail.’ Jesus must have been crucified on a cross, and not a stake as the Watchtower organization teaches. Why is it, then, that the Watchtower teaches something that is so clearly unbiblical?
5. The Watchtower organization states that through good works and sincere effort only 144,000 elite JW’s will go to heaven. The 144,000 are mentioned in two chapters in the Bible: Revelation 7 & 14. By looking at the verses it is obvious that the 144,000 are literal Jews of the ancient tribes with no Gentiles among them (7:4-8). They are all males (14:4) and virgins (14:4). If the JW states that the usage of Jewish male virgins is figurative, what gives them the right to state that number of 144,000 is literal?
6. Where does it teach in the Bible that Jesus is Michael the archangel? Why isn't Jesus called Michael right now since he is in heaven?
~ CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY powderpuff answered on 03/22/07:Hello jjgoss,
I don't think there are many JW here other than Hope12. The Christianity board is hostile not only to Christians, but especially the fringe sects.
I personally believe that it is a waste of time to argue about such differences in belief. It completely takes way the message of LOVE thy neighbor, and all are created equal (God loves all of us), all are children of God, acceptance, forgiveness, charity, etc.. I think it is wrong to dog thy neighbor with differences of opinion over the mysteries of God.
Unless you are trying to brainwash someone, there is no need to do any more than to invite someone to share and learn about different beliefs. After all, according to the Bible, Jesus will be the final judge on who is and who isn't saved! And Christians should not forget, He will use the same measure to judge the Christian as the Christian used to judge others.
So I personally like to believe it when someone tells me they are a Christian, they are telling me their belief. --->Why would they lie? Christianity is a belief.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | jjgoss asked on 03/18/07 - ..prayers... ..Surveys show that more than 90% of America pray daily. They pray for health, wealth, happiness, and their loved ones. However, many end up disillusioned, and some end up bitter, when their prayers are not answered. This is because they don't understand what the Bible says about prayer. It teaches that sin will stop God even hearing our prayers (Psalm 66:18). It teaches, among other things, that if we pray with doubt, we will not get an answer (James 1:6-7)....
...Are all your prayers answered, or just some of them????......... powderpuff answered on 03/18/07:Hello jjgoss,
When I was a child I prayed for protection and safety. A lot of those prayers were not answered. I thought if I was as good as possible maybe God would protect me. Nothing worked until I was old enough to get away.
As an adult my prayers changed and are not the type of prayer that need an answer.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | tropicalstorm asked on 03/18/07 - maybe a person would feel like posting more Christian stuff
BUT it is T00 predictable what the replies are.
You have ones saying that is your opinion, subjective
not object, myth and so forth.
Then Peddler arguing with you saying you are saying something different than what you are saying. Drgade
understood perfectly well what I was saying about not only did Adam and Eve start the dying process when they ate of the tree, they also were not as spiritually connected to God as they were before the fall. I did not say anything about any eternal separation or science. I was saying that Adam and Eve before the fall followed things according to the spiritual, but after
the fall they relied on their five senses predominately because they no longer had that spiritual closeness with God they had before the fall.
I am following my own religion and thickheaded arguments from ignorance so could I have an explanation where I am wrong on a large part of their spirituality dying?
powderpuff answered on 03/18/07:Hello TS,
Your post with the clarifications/follow-ups is a perfect example of people misunderstanding the intentions and meaning of what is posted.
I don't think you are making a big deal out of typos, but someone else does. I thought you were trying to be helpful to point out that a common typo is i for o. I make my share of typos and I hope people can understand what I mean, but if they can't I would hope they would ask. When I read "Where are you wring is trying to mythologize history" I wondered what it meant too. Now that I replace the i with o, I think he also switched are with you and meant to type= Where you are wrong is trying to mythologize history. These kinds of mistakes should not change the intention and become the focus of posts. And as it has been pointed out, we should not go on and on about it.... and its probably best to only bring something like that up if the intention or meaning is lost in the typo. ;)
Ok, a person would feel like posting more Christian stuff if the board was more open to reading other's points of view. Instead of accepting that each of us is different and could learn from each other, differences (and those who post them) are often attacked. It seems a lot of people sit around waiting for something to jump on. Waiting for someone to tear down, rather than looking for someone to help or share with. Suspicions run high and some people quickly believe false rumors about others. A lot of times I come here it seems like a hostile hate fest environment. Not what I would expect to find on a Christianity board.
I think a person would feel like posting more Christian stuff here if it were a more pleasant place to be.
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | hOPE12 asked on 03/18/07 - Did you miss me?
Helllo Everyone,
I have had so issues to deal with and have been away from the board. How has everyone been?
I was very surprised to read some of the comments on the board. I do know that Hank had lost his wife Carol and that I believe that he truly did. My respect for others does not allow me to call them a liar, especially about such a personal matter as the death of a loved one and a mate at that.
Domino I have always thought of you as a dignified individual and one who has love for others. Is it possible that Domino is not really domino, just as other who claim to be someone else and they are not:???
Anyway I was on the board when Carol died and I am sorry domino, I believe Hank. No one can have said some of the thingss he did unless it was a fact.
Good to be back, take care,
Hope12 powderpuff answered on 03/18/07:Welcome back Hope,
I've been very busy out in the 'real' world. This is a busy time of year for me!
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | Pete. asked on 03/18/07 - The confusion of saints Is it not surprising that I cannot take St Tom the Baptist seriously, when he gets so bewildered misreading posts?
This is Toms777’s comment to my response to domino’s “The Champ”
It is disgutsing to make fun of a person by suggesting that they get cancer. I find it suprising that even you or domino would stoop to such depths. I wish that ti were possible to give 10 black stars
I referred to two films and a member's previous illness!!
Check it out!
powderpuff answered on 03/18/07:Hello Pete,
I saw that. I noticed you made reference to wf bowel cancer. I did not see either of the films so I have no comment on that.
I did not think you were making fun of anyone or suggesting they get cancer.
A person diagnosed with bowel cancer would likely be alive more than 5 years later and possibly even considered to be cancer free by then. A person diagnosed with pancreatic cancer will likely be dead before a year has passed. Check it out yourself.
I am sure some people make up illnesses for attention, but if that is the case they need compassion because they are sick in another way.
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | HANK1 asked on 03/17/07 - DOMINO:
You're a real Bastard. "Wonder how long we have to wait to find out that Hank's "Leslie" is dying from a brain tumor???" Damn, I wish you lived nextdoor!
HANK
powderpuff answered on 03/17/07:Hello Hank,
Consider the source. All I can say is I'm glad you don't live next door!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | MarySusan asked on 03/17/07 - Christians Arrested in DC WASHINGTON — Thousands of Christians prayed for peace at an anti-war service Friday night at the Washington National Cathedral, kicking off a weekend of protests around the country to mark the fourth anniversary of the war in Iraq.
Afterward, participants marched with battery-operated faux candles through snow and wind toward the White House, where police began arresting protesters shortly before midnight. Protest guidelines require demonstrators to continue moving while on the White House sidewalk.
"We gave them three warnings, and they broke the guidelines," said Lt. Scott Fear. "There's an area on the White House sidewalk where you have to keep moving."
About 100 people crossed the street from Lafayette Park _ where thousands of protesters were gathered _ to demonstrate on the White House sidewalk late Friday. Police began cuffing them and putting them on buses to be taken for processing.
Fear said 222 people had been arrested by Saturday morning. The first 100 were charged with disobeying a lawful order, and the others with crossing a police line. All of them were fined $100.
The windows of the executive mansion were dark, as the president was away for the weekend at Camp David in Maryland.
John Pattison, 29, said he and his wife flew in from Portland, Ore., to attend his first anti-war rally. He said his opposition to the war had developed over time.
"Quite literally on the night that shock and awe commenced, my friend and I toasted the military might of the United States," Pattison said. "We were quite proud and thought we were doing the right thing."
He said the way the war had progressed and U.S. foreign policy since then had forced him to question his beliefs.
"A lot of the rhetoric that we hear coming from Christians has been dominated by the religious right and has been strong advocacy for the war," Pattison said. "That's just not the way I read my Gospel."............
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Comments? powderpuff answered on 03/17/07:Hello MarySusan,
I have a question. When are they going to stop arresting people for stupid reasons?
Thursday, fifteen people were arrested in an illegal gambling raid after 2 Police departments backed up by the Vice squad raided a Washington Township location and found an illegal Texas Hold’em game.
Two women and a man conducting the game were charged with operating a gambling house, a misdemeanor and 12 other women and men (most of the card players were senior citizens) charged with public gaming, also a misdemeanor.
Authorities seized more than $2,200 (less than $150 each), poker chips, cards, and gaming rules.
On the news they said over 20 officers in all busted the door down same as they would for a drug raid or other dangerous situation. The criminal card players said they never identified themselves as police and they thought they were being robbed at first. They didn't realize they were breaking the law and would have stopped playing cards if given the opportunity, but ignorance of the law is no excuse.
But they could have gone to the carry-out and bought lottery tickets.....
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | MarySusan asked on 03/17/07 - A St. Patty's Day Story Late yesterday afternoon,. I had just finished on the computer when the doorbell rang. It was Aurelija(from Lithuania), one of my first caregivers. She had visited earlier this year, once arriving when I was in bad shape with crying; she her entire life falling apart.
Well, she brought me and Nick a present....cat food and treats and litter!! Best of all, she came to clean my apartment. *Really* clean my apartment. :) She spent over four hours on my studio, and did a fabulous job. MY SINUS' EVEN STARTED DRAINING AS SHE REMOVED THE DUST AND CAT HAIR!! lol!!
I have always held with the Christian commandment to love your neighbor as yourself and have done whatever I could to help people in need, and I had helped Aurelija a lot. There is nothing supernatural in this!
There is the eastern concept of Karma, and the Jerry Springer version, "What goes around, comes around". :)
If you want to experience heaven, what have you done today to help someone in need? It is the little things that count. Money is not the most important need, necessarily, but giving of the self is powerful. Little things, real things. Anyone can help his/her brothers and sisters in some way, and every day. :)
To hell with arguing about denominations and spliting hairs about Bible quotes; that's for men anyway, and none of then will ever "get to heaven"!! LOL!!
I gotta go put my new wedgewood blue throws out on my furniture and tidy up a bit. Things are really shaping up!! powderpuff answered on 03/17/07:Hello MarySusan,
I thought Wendy was on the windowsill waiting to be let in?
That was very nice of Aurelija to drop in and do your spring cleaning for you!! Its so nice to have everything cleaned up and dusted and fresh and new :)
Today I planted some flower seeds. And when the flowers are grown, I will cut them and give them away!
powderpuff
| | Question/Answer | | MaggieB asked on 03/16/07 - Women seeking abortions in South Carolina would be required to view an ultrasound image of their fet By SEANNA ADCOX, Associated Press Writer
COLUMBIA, S.C. - Women seeking abortions in South Carolina would be required to view an ultrasound image of their fetus before the procedure under a proposal gaining support from lawmakers. If enacted, it would be the first law of its kind in the nation.
Some states make ultrasound images available to women before an abortion, but South Carolina would be alone in mandating that women see the pictures.
Proponents say women would change their minds after seeing an ultrasound and choose instead to keep the child or offer it for adoption.
To reduce abortions, women need "as much background as possible when they're making decisions," said Oran Smith, president of the Palmetto Family Council, the state affiliate of Focus on the Family.
Critics consider the proposal a tool to intimidate women who already have made an agonizing decision.
"The women of South Carolina would rather talk to their doctor about information they need to make private, personal medical decisions. This is not a place for interference by politicians," said Nancy Keenan, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America.
The bill's chief sponsor, Rep. Greg Delleney, considers the bill a natural addition to the state's informed-consent law, which requires that women be told about fetal development and offered alternatives to abortion. The law requires a woman to have at least an hour to think about the information before ending her pregnancy.
Marie Connelly of Columbia, who had an abortion more than four years ago, said she now wishes she could have seen an ultrasound of her fetus before undergoing the procedure. She said she recently went back to the clinic to get "the only picture I will have of my child."
"This legislation will serve as one last chance for those women who, like myself, unknowingly choose against their better judgment," said Connelly, a director at the family council. "More women will not have to bear the relentless heartache knowing they will never be able to hug their lost child."
Similar legislation has arisen across the nation over the last few years as states try to strengthen abortion-counseling requirements, said Elizabeth Nash, a public policy associate at the Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit research center on sexual and reproductive health.
At least seven states have laws concerning abortions and ultrasounds. For example, women in Oklahoma, Utah and Wisconsin must be told an ultrasound is available. In Arkansas and Michigan, if an ultrasound is performed, women must be given the opportunity to view it.
Ten other states are considering similar legislation. Mississippi is reviewing a proposal that would allow women to listen to a fetal heartbeat in addition to seeing the ultrasound image.
Delleney's proposal would require patients to certify in writing that they viewed the ultrasound.
Democratic state Rep. Gilda Cobb-Hunter plans to lead the fight against the legislation when it comes up for debate later this month in the GOP-dominated House. But she said she expects the legislation to pass because even lawmakers who don't like the bill will be afraid to vote against it.
The measure has picked up 20 co-sponsors in the House. A matching bill in the Senate remains in a committee.
Cooments welcome, 1 black star {*} for ridicule.
MaggieeB powderpuff answered on 03/17/07:Hello Maggie,
I would be against forcing anyone to view any kind of information they did not want. Besides, if you say women must view an ultrasound of their baby before they have an abortion, its still pro choice .... only with a Clockwork Orange twist to it!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | Rosekeeper asked on 03/16/07 - My Beautiful Son I am so proud of my Son, the one whom you talk down, is making something out of his life!
This article is in the papers!
Now, Please leave me a lone, no more questions about him, for all this time, that was not him!
He has not the desire or the time to even come here, or to visit! Plus, he is better looking than Tom Cruse and Brad Pit' Put together"
"The next Anderson Cooper!"
James ----- Professor Victoria Cliett
English Composition 131
14 February 2007
Hillary Clinton. Our Next President?
Although the 2008 election year will be an exciting one, it will end quite
predictably; Hillary Rodham Clinton will be the chosen Democratic candidate,
John McCain will grow older and lose the GOP nomination again, and Rudolph
Giuliani will carry the Republican torch, ultimately winning the presidency. Now, I
just don’t go around making prophetic inquisitions like that, but I do know a thing
or two about the political process and how Americans choose their leaders. For
one thing, the divine intervention of a democratic victory last November does not
mean we are ready to push the Bush doctrine of militaristic control on the back
burner.
We’ll unmistakably abandon our liberal rebirth for one of those "heroes"
who believe "leadership" is about destroying third world countries just to capture
some terrorist swine with bombs made of Duracell batteries. This is the kind of
leader Rudy will be, and this is who we will vote for.
Never mind his rebellious liberal views that sends a cold feeling down his
partys’ back, Giuliani does have this one repetitive conservative view, that
America still needs a strong president with an aggressive stance toward terrorists.
Well, of course, but this is what they run on, and it’s also a tactic used to blast the
liberals. We still have people in this country that are vulnerable to progressive-
secular spin by advocacy journalists like Bill O Reilly and Sean Hannity that will
perpetually ridicule Clinton for being some weak, terrorist supporting baby killer
that will doom this country.
Obviously the country is getting more liberal and more woman-friendly,
and this is an act of terrorism itself to conservatives. It’s so scary to them, the fact
that America is becoming diverse, that there is a chance of a woman becoming
president, and most appalling, that white males are losing power! This eye
gouging reality is why Fox News is around, full of scared white conservatives
whining about how their country is dying. Still clinging to their brain washing
attempt to scare people into voting for a country music listening Republican that
will save them from immorality and future attacks on our soil.
Then again, no matter how liberal we now look, most Americans still hold
their belief that an image of power in the world means a safe country, and with the
exception of SUV’s and fast food, that’s all we really want. A safe country. People
will enter the voting booths not with contempt for women, but an insecure feeling
of doubt. "Well, say we do have a woman president, will she do all she can to
prevent another attack?"
Although I’m against voting, not because of religious views or anything, I
do believe that Hillary Clinton could make a president. I didn’t add good for a
reason. I don’t know if she will be a good president, I just know that I won’t be
running mad with fear if she’s in office. I would feel safe knowing she was
president, not because she ran a campaign on fear and a slogan like "If you vote
for me, terrorists won’t kill you!" but because she’s an able minded person,
experienced and adequate for the job. So is Obama, and so is Giuliani. Bush was
not an able minded person with experience and adequacy, but that’s another
story.
Well, not really. Bush has a share of responsibility in how this election will
unfold, in that he did effect the way a lot of people think lately. I hate to sound
radical, but he did use 9/11 as a platform of propaganda, redefining what
patriotism is, and how to measure one’s patriotism. For instance, it’s unpatriotic to
vote for someone like Hillary Clinton. Not because she’s a woman, but because
she’s pro-abortion, pro-environment, and anti-Iraq. But that neanderthal state of
mind evokes old-fashioned biases. Republicans and their media won’t come out
and say it, but they really don’t want a woman to be president.
Now who’s sounding biased? Well, I’ll give some examples. Note that in
the reporting of her election campaign, conservative journalists often refer to
Hillary Clinton as "grandmother of five" or "wife of former president, Bill Clinton".
They never referred to John McCain as a grandfather of two. What they’re
creating is an image of Hillary as just a house wife with a good campaign. This is
dangerous because it might effect how people think about her.
She’s also a former first-lady, and many think that her present position in
politics is solely because of this. Sure, Hillary Clinton would not be as iconic as
she is if it weren’t for her husband, but there’s no denying that she did get where
she’s at politically because of her own accomplishments. She’s rarely mentioned
as a former lawyer, or a former lawyer for Wal-Mart for that matter. Which is why I
wouldn’t vote for her in the first place. Any one who defends a scum bag cess
pool like Wal-Mart will not get my support.
I do want some politicians that will focus more on stem cells research.
We’ll never see this though. We won’t see Hillary Clinton as president either.
She’s just not as war-hungry as Giuliani, and I sincerely believe that that’s what
people want in a president. A militaristic fiend. And in the end, the government we
have is a dire reflection of the people in the country. If we have incompetent and
uninformed citizens, then we’re going to have incompetent and uninformed
politicians. For god’s sake, they can’t even distinguish the difference between a
Sunni and a Shite! That’s the plain truth. If people could, they would vote for
George W. Bush all over again. In the late 1970’s, a poll found that after learning
the lessons of Watergate, the majority of Americans still would have voted for
Nixon. That’s a stark reminder of the deep rooted conservative and war hungry
impulses we have, and why we want Rudolph Giuliani to be the 44th president of
the United States.
I love my Son, already at a very young age, he owns a three bedroom Home, and my younger Son, is an up-coming Artist, and will have his own CD out very soon!
Anyone can be a good parent, if we put our Children first.
powderpuff answered on 03/17/07:Hello Joy,
I guess what I'd like to know is why you told so many people JJD was your son James and even apparently sent pictures trying to prove it? I never could figure out how you sending a picture could prove anything about anyone on this board anyway. I could send you a picture of myself with other people in it but it would prove nothing. These are not questions about your son, they are questions about you and why you led so many to believe JJD was your son.
I'm glad you are proud of your son now. It beats being ashamed of him and denying him!
powderpuff | | Question/Answer | | HANK1 asked on 03/15/07 - GAME #2 - OVER:
My very good friend, Dark Crow, nailed it when he told me I have been out of character the last few days. I was BUT on purpose. I talked in opposites. Almost every clarification mentioned something negative about my alter ego. Why did I say what I did? Interpret this, penned by Herbert Spencer:
"The poverty of the incapable, the distresses that come upon the imprudent, the starvation of the idle, and those shoulderings aside of the weak by the strong, which leave so many "in shallows and in miseries," are the decrees of a large, farseeing benevolence."
Now think back re: what you said in your writings these past few days. The above sums it up ... in my opinion. I have found that a few of you have feelings that are permanent and quite primary. To me, the world lies before me like a land of dreams. To you, your thoughts compliment chaos and represent what I don't as a Christian. This, of course, applies to all the atheists on this Board. Your 'best poetry' has been found to have a power of forming, sustaining and somewhat delighting me, AS NOTHING CAN. Why? Because I'm not one of you ... and I thank God for that.
From here on out, the real Hank will 'stand up.' Leslie and I are getting married the 27th. I'll start hitting shag balls this weekend (practice golf) and enjoy every minute of every day. Leslie and I might move to Scottsdale, AZ, once we get hitched. She's been there and I've worked there twice. I mention my plans because this isn't the "OTHER' Hank talking. My personal life couldn't be better ... as if you gave a darn.
HANK
powderpuff answered on 03/15/07:Hello Hank,
You can never prove anything to anyone here. You already know that though, don't you?
I don't get much sense out of Herbert Spencer's writing. You tell me what you think it means. I disagree with it, it doesn't happen that way in THIS lifetime!
And I disagree with your MO (that's legal talk). All of us have primary feelings and base instincts. If you have a specific message for Atheists you could fine tune your aim and post it on the Atheist board.
When you try to hide your motive, your message is lost. I've found that direct communication is more productive, unless I just want to play.... and think about that Hank, play should be FUN, shouldn't it? I don't get the feeling of Fun when others try to direct me indirectly, nor do I think it would be fun to indirectly direct other adults! If you have something to say, say it. If you can't because you blocked someone or someone blocked you, keep your mouth sh | |
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